Repentence: What Does It Really Mean?

CantThinkofaUserName · Sep 27, 2011

elopez said:
If you're trying to point out the hypocrisy in Christians sinning and not feeling guilty which would mean to neglect the sacrifice of Christ, I am not sure I understand.

There is a lot of hypocrisy in the Christian community, but I wasn't intentionally trying to point that out.

Like I said in my earlier post, most Christians feel bad when they do something wrong, but what I was getting at is that it's not the type of conviction of sin that would drive people away from sinning. It's like seeing a dead animal in the road: "Wow, that's horrible. Too bad. Oh, look, a Wendy's. PULL OVER!!!" You feel bad for a split moment, but then you sin the same sin yet again - in many instances, the very next day.

elopez said:
It goes back to the whole genuinely repenting thing. We repent because we really feel as if we violated God's love, not because of our own personal gain.

Yea', exactly.

And I'm not sure if you're making a random statement or if that was directed towards something I wrote, but for the record, I never implied it was for our own gain.

elopez said:
As with your analogy to which I tweaked, the father would not begin to apologize to his son for his own advantage but if he really is human and feels sorry he would do so because he honestly felt bad.

Yea', that's exactly what I've been saying. Where are you getting this "own advantage" stuff from?

The point still stands that if you hurt someone you love, you feel bad. The reason I chose to use the son as an example, instead of father, was because it's totally synonymous with us and God. We are the children of God. And we (the children/"the son") sin against the Father, and as a result caused His son (God) to be tortured and killed because of us, to -save- us. Same as my earlier example, the child caused indirect harm to his father, not the father (or Father) caused harm to h(H)is children.

elopez said:
A Christian does not habitually sin because of Christ's sacrifice

Who said they did?

elopez said:
when we do sin I would say most Christians realize they're wrong and begin to feel shame.

But yet there we go, right back into those muddy waters the very next day.

The -level- of shame is but a mere speck on the surface of what I believe genuine repentance is about.

You used the word "hate" in one of your earlier posts - such a strong, strong word. Does anyone "HATE" sin? Man, NO WAY! NO. WAY. We (I'll use the word "we", as I'm a somewhat luke-cold Christian) feel bad, but that really about sums it up.

Lying, for example. There was a Saint named Teresa (St. Teresa of Avila), and she said that she would rather die a 1,000 deaths than to lie even once. Yet it's almost as if you have to pull out a magnifying glass to catch the brief glimpse of a truth certain Christians speak.

I mean it just boggles my mind that God could have chosen 50 billion things to have us NOT do, and yet he simply chose TEN. One of which? Don't lie. I mean if the creator of all there was, is and all there will be - the creator of both you and me, and all we see, says DON'T LIE, there has to be an INCREDIBLY deep meaning and reason behind saying such a thing. Why then, do we not get that DEEP DOWN? The way Teresa seemed to "get it?" It seems as if everyone lies. People only need do (or not do) TEN THINGS, and hating/not loving and lying is what we do best. Yet every Tom, Dick and Harry considers themselves a Christian.

You said in one of your earlier posts that repentance would be, "hate toward our sin." Think about the word hate for a second. If someone HATED their job with a very, very deeply rooted passion, would they continue working if they didn't absolutely HAVE to? If every single day, seven days a week, they walked into a factory and their "greet and smile" was a stench so disturbing it would nauseate anyone upon contact, and once inside, they walk into an atmosphere that's so loud they have no choice but to wear ear plugs. They then begin their excruciatingly labor-intensive tasks, all the while being harassed by coworkers 6 of the 12 hour shift they work. They then take their 10 minute break, and back into that shower of soul shattering they go. Punch out, and repeat the next day. Tell me: if they (them, their family, and their children) didn't highly, highly depend on that job, would they continue working there? To answer the question, no. They wouldn't. No one in their right mind would. So why then do most Christians continue to sin if it truly is "hate" they have for sin? I think if we hated sin, we would stop sinning. I mean, really. Does such a statement need to be analyzed?

What I think, though, is that an even HIGHER (non-worldly, but rather GODLY) level of hate towards sin is what MANY (including myself) need in order to truly have a great chance of turning away. It seems pretty obvious to me that feeling "bad" is just not enough. I don't really know if the shame many of us feel is even genuine - I mean how in the world could it be? It may just be what I believe is an (I'll use your word) "act." I don't think it's a sorrow that stems from guidance of the Holy Spirit, but rather what I believe is from a world view that says, "GOD SAID THIS IS BAD. SO DON'T DO IT." And thus people feel bad doing "it" because they've been led to believe that "it" is bad, and not because they have a genuine remorse in their heart of hearts that such a thing is just down right detestable.

Abraham knew the law in his heart before it even existed. That's what I'm starting to think many of us need. We need whatever caused him to KNOW God's law from a place of Spirit, and not a place of intellectuality (which is where I believe many, including myself, are operating from), so that we can repent in the absolute truest form, as God had originally intended.

bling · Sep 27, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
The point still stands that if you hurt someone you love, you feel bad. The reason I chose to use the son as an example, instead of father, was because it's totally synonymous with us and God. We are the children of God. And we (the children/"the son") sin against the Father, and as a result caused His son (God) to be tortured and killed because of us, to -save- us. Same as my earlier example, the child caused indirect harm to his father, not the father (or Father) caused harm to h(H)is children.

What I think, though, is that an even HIGHER (non-worldly, but rather GODLY) level of hate towards sin is what MANY (including myself) need in order to truly have a great chance of turning away. It seems pretty obvious to me that feeling "bad" is just not enough. I don't really know if the shame many of us feel is even genuine - I mean how in the world could it be? It may just be what I believe is an (I'll use your word) "act." I don't think it's a sorrow that stems from guidance of the Holy Spirit, but rather what I believe is from a world view that says, "GOD SAID THIS IS BAD. SO DON'T DO IT." And thus people feel bad doing "it" because they've been led to believe that "it" is bad, and not because they have a genuine remorse in their heart of hearts that such a thing is just down right detestable.

Abraham knew the law in his heart before it even existed. That's what I'm starting to think many of us need. We need whatever caused him to KNOW God's law from a place of Spirit, and not a place of intellectuality (which is where I believe many, including myself, are operating from), so that we can repent in the absolute truest form, as God had originally intended.

You show great wisdom and insight in what you say about repenting, confessing and even lying. For an agnostic you have spent lots of time thinking about these. I would suggest reading the parable of the prodigal son Luke 15: 11-32. Repentance is simply the thing you should do when you come to your senses. Coming to your senses is just facing the reality of your situation, what you have been doing, where you are at, what will happen, where you have been and what your alternatives are. Repentance is turning from what you have been doing (hurting others) the situation you have gotten yourself into (a conscience that is burdened by transgression), unsuccessfully trying to solve your own problem to seeking help (charity) from a benevolent Creator.

The confessing of your sins is just being truthful and stating the reality, usually to those that already know it, but youre stating it shows the humility you need to accept Gods Charity. Anyone can tell the truth, so confessing does not require some special help.

Repenting is also what man does and it is not something God does for or to man. Again like the prodigal son it is turning away from a disaster (in his case a cruel death by starving to death while feeding pigs). Even with all that motivation (created/allowed by the father) the son was not doing anything noble in returning to the father just wanting the father to show enough mercy to give him a job.

The big hurdle for the non Christian to repent is the humility and trust needed to accept Gods Charity. People just do not like to humbly accept charity.

You also talk about Christians going right back to doing the same sins, but it does not have to be that way. The past sins of a Christian should become part of their personal witness (that is what I use to do) and contrasted with (here is what I can now do through Christ that gives me strength). Past sins cease to be a burden to your conscience, if they are an asset to your witness. You also have added reason not to repeat those sins, since you talk (confess) about them as being part of your previous life (prior to your repenting of them). The way to keep from repeating the same sins over (that is all I have left to do, since I have done them all) is not to try and keep from sinning, but fill your life with good stuff so you do not have time to sin. (another subject)

Like I said good questions and good comments.

CantThinkofaUserName · Sep 27, 2011

Thanks for the words, Bling.

bling said:
Repenting is also what man does and it is not something God does for or to man.

Well, wouldn't you say that if the Spirit was within a Christian, the Spirit would speak, and the man would move/repent/turn away on his own - and with spiritual power, instead of mental power? So technically, you're right, but I think you need that strong spiritual base that shows/tells you what you're doing and how truly wrong it is.

bling said:
You also talk about Christians going right back to doing the same sins, but it does not have to be that way. The past sins of a Christian should become part of their personal witness (that is what I use to do) and contrasted with (here is what I can now do through Christ that gives me strength). Past sins cease to be a burden to your conscience, if they are an asset to your witness.

It doesn't have to be that way, but it is. Is that something personal that has helped you through your walk? Or does it mention in the bible that past sins will help guide us into salvation? Honestly curious, because (and nothing personal meant), I want nothing less than Gods truth - as incredibly well as what you said may have worked for you.

bling said:
The way to keep from repeating the same sins over (that is all I have left to do, since I have done them all) is not to try and keep from sinning, but fill your life with good stuff so you do not have time to sin.

I know there's a bible verse that touches on this (something about, "idle hands devils playground?"), but which of us can't find time to sin? Honestly, I don't know if filling your time with positive things would be such a strong motivator in helping you turn from sin. You can lie while enjoying a cup of tea in church. You can hate while at a charity event. You can judge and condemn a group of people in the midst of donating clothes to a charity organization in a bad part of town.

Anyway, thanks again for the help, Bling. Let's just assume all of the above questions were rhetorical, 'cause I honestly have a splitting headache thinking about all this stuff and don't know if I'll have the energy to reply to anyone. lol Just being honest.

I'll keep reading the scriptures and your posts and other posts on here until something clicks. In the mean time, if you guys can pray that I receive the Holy Spirit, I'd really appreciate it. I know it says, "ask and you shall receive." But I've asked, fasted, prayed, and have not yet received. So perhaps prayers from those who have a stronger spiritual base, or strong faith, or the Holy Spirit, will actually reach God with their prayers better/quicker than I can.

Thanks again to everyone for the help. I can at least walk away now knowing the answer to the question in my original post. Which is a good step.

Take care, guys.

razeontherock · Sep 27, 2011

One minor point of clarification:

CantThinkofaUserName said:
I don't know if there is a difference in repenting to a priest vs repenting to God,

The concept here was confession; confessing to a Priest vs confessing directly to God. (Presumably to God the Son) Confession and repentance are 2 different things!

Repentance is not merely turning away from something, but also turning towards something else. In the Christian's life, repentance is specifically turning toward God and away from sin. I think this is the appropriate order, and find this to be a VERY important concept! (This also clarifies my previous concept of a car battery needing both a positive and negative connection in order to work; we need these 2 connections of turning toward God and away from sin to be connected to His Power)

elopez · Sep 28, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Like I said in my earlier post, most Christians feel bad when they do something wrong, but what I was getting at is that it's not the type of conviction of sin that would drive people away from sinning. It's like seeing a dead animal in the road: "Wow, that's horrible. Too bad. Oh, look, a Wendy's. PULL OVER!!!" You feel bad for a split moment, but then you sin the same sin yet again - in many instances, the very next day.

I dunno'. For me it's hard to judge something like that. Perhaps only God can. For us it's all about our actions, but even those could be deceiving. That's why I believe only God can know and say who feels bad and who doesn't.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Yea', exactly.

And I'm not sure if you're making a random statement or if that was directed towards something I wrote, but for the record, I never implied it was for our own gain.

I was not saying you implied that. I was just saying repentance should not be for our own gain.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Yea', that's exactly what I've been saying. Where are you getting this "own advantage" stuff from?

It's nothing to sweat I'm simply saying it should not be for our own advantage.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
The point still stands that if you hurt someone you love, you feel bad. The reason I chose to use the son as an example, instead of father, was because it's totally synonymous with us and God. We are the children of God. And we (the children/"the son") sin against the Father, and as a result caused His son (God) to be tortured and killed because of us, to -save- us. Same as my earlier example, the child caused indirect harm to his father, not the father (or Father) caused harm to h(H)is children.

Yes, I am not arguing against that point.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Who said they did?

I have encountered a few.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
But yet there we go, right back into those muddy waters the very next day.

The -level- of shame is but a mere speck on the surface of what I believe genuine repentance is about.

You used the word "hate" in one of your earlier posts - such a strong, strong word. Does anyone "HATE" sin? Man, NO WAY! NO. WAY. We (I'll use the word "we", as I'm a somewhat luke-cold Christian) feel bad, but that really about sums it up.

I hate sin. I'm not going to lie it's tempting but I still hate it. I know a friend of mine in the UP, a very devout Catholic, who we could say is a misanthropist is about life is as he is about sin.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Lying, for example. There was a Saint named Teresa (St. Teresa of Avila), and she said that she would rather die a 1,000 deaths than to lie even once. Yet it's almost as if you have to pull out a magnifying glass to catch the brief glimpse of a truth certain Christians speak.

Why is is just Christians? It's everybody, not just Christians. And so what? The few Christians that lie do not speak for the whole of Christians.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
I mean it just boggles my mind that God could have chosen 50 billion things to have us NOT do, and yet he simply chose TEN. One of which? Don't lie. I mean if the creator of all there was, is and all there will be - the creator of both you and me, and all we see, says DON'T LIE, there has to be an INCREDIBLY deep meaning and reason behind saying such a thing. Why then, do we not get that DEEP DOWN? The way Teresa seemed to "get it?" It seems as if everyone lies. People only need do (or not do) TEN THINGS, and hating/not loving and lying is what we do best. Yet every Tom, Dick and Harry considers themselves a Christian.

Really, 50 billion? Try being more realistic or least get to showing those 50 billion things. The Ten which are commanded are considered the essentials to morality. Speak for yourself, and even then not for everyone or at least in the same manner. Sure everyone lies but does everyone lie to the same degree?

CantThinkofaUserName said:
You said in one of your earlier posts that repentance would be, "hate toward our sin." Think about the word hate for a second. If someone HATED their job with a very, very deeply rooted passion, would they continue working if they didn't absolutely HAVE to? If every single day, seven days a week, they walked into a factory and their "greet and smile" was a stench so disturbing it would nauseate anyone upon contact, and once inside, they walk into an atmosphere that's so loud they have no choice but to wear ear plugs. They then begin their excruciatingly labor-intensive tasks, all the while being harassed by coworkers 6 of the 12 hour shift they work. They then take their 10 minute break, and back into that shower of soul shattering they go. Punch out, and repeat the next day. Tell me: if they (them, their family, and their children) didn't highly, highly depend on that job, would they continue working there? To answer the question, no. They wouldn't. No one in their right mind would. So why then do most Christians continue to sin if it truly is "hate" they have for sin? I think if we hated sin, we would stop sinning. I mean, really. Does such a statement need to be analyzed?

The answer here is obvious. Nothing we do will make us from stop sinning. That doesn't mean if we sin we couldn't hate what we have done. Honestly I don't find your long winded, unnecessary analogy comparable to the question.

ebia · Sep 28, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
From what I understand, it means to "FEEL sorry" and not to actually SAY (speak, utter, etc) the WORD, "sorry." It also means to "turn away" from your sins.

So I have two questions:

1.) Is there anything else to the word repent that I haven't covered?

2.) Is there any place in the bible that says that you need to literally SAY, "sorry?" Not talking about the technical definition above where it states to "feel sorry", but rather any verse that states that you need to say it.

Thanks!

According to his own biographies, Josephus, during his time as a Jewish
leader, told one of the radical zealot type leaders "repent and believe in me". Very similar to Jesus "repent and believe the gospel".

What Josephus clearly did not mean is "feel guilty, say sorry, and think I am God". What he meant - and expected his audience to understand - by the phrase was "give up your agenda and way of trying to deal with the problem [Rome] and trust mine".

That's what Jesus means - give up your agenda and way, and trust mine.

CantThinkofaUserName · Sep 28, 2011

elopez said:
I hate sin. I'm not going to lie it's tempting but I still hate it. I know a friend of mine in the UP, a very devout Catholic, who we could say is a misanthropist is about life is as he is about sin.

Do you think I thought that St. Teressa had anything short of extreme hate for lying? I don't doubt that there may be many out there that hate sin, but I believe what the bible says: "Many will be called, but few will be chosen."

People are just way too convicted of their own righteousness. I mean look at Simon/Peter, do I believe that he believed that he would die for Jesus? Oh, yeah. For sure. But what happened when the opportunity arouse for him to die for his Lord and Savior? He didn't disown Him once, nor twice, but three times. When what we claim is put to the test, we fail miserably. "I won't lie unless I have to" means you have a lying heart. We don't think we're liars (and may even take pride in such a thought) until we're given a chance to lie, only to then follow through. I have faith in God, I don't have much faith in mans love for God.

elopez said:
Really, 50 billion? Try being more realistic or least get to showing those 50 billion things. The Ten which are commanded are considered the essentials to morality. Speak for yourself, and even then not for everyone or at least in the same manner.

You're swimming in a sea of semantics. It's called hyperbole. Jesus told people to sell ALL their possessions and to come follow Him. When those who decided to follow Jesus met Him, were they nude? No. They still had some possessions: cloak, sandals, etc. His point was to sell anything that was not necessary. So if you look at everything so literally, you're going to miss out on the bigger picture, or, in this case, people's points.

elopez said:
Sure everyone lies but does everyone lie to the same degree?

Go ahead and explain how a lie isn't a lie, please.

bling · Sep 28, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Thanks for the words, Bling.

Well, wouldn't you say that if the Spirit was within a Christian, the Spirit would speak, and the man would move/repent/turn away on his own - and with spiritual power, instead of mental power? So technically, you're right, but I think you need that strong spiritual base that shows/tells you what you're doing and how truly wrong it is.

The repentance I was talking about was the nonbelievers repentance prior to having the indwelling Holy spirit.

It doesn't have to be that way, but it is. Is that something personal that has helped you through your walk? Or does it mention in the bible that past sins will help guide us into salvation? Honestly curious, because (and nothing personal meant), I want nothing less than Gods truth - as incredibly well as what you said may have worked for you.

To some degree the whole bible is filled with descriptions of wonderful faithful people sinning and repenting and their faith in allowing God to change their lives. Paul gives us his opening lessons he gave to nonbelievers (especially gentiles) that include telling them his sinful past and the difference Christ has made.

Sin does have a purpose for the nonbeliever, but there is no purpose for the Christian to sin, except maybe to show the Christian; he is quenching the Holy Spirit.

I know there's a bible verse that touches on this (something about, "idle hands devils playground?"), but which of us can't find time to sin? Honestly, I don't know if filling your time with positive things would be such a strong motivator in helping you turn from sin. You can lie while enjoying a cup of tea in church. You can hate while at a charity event. You can judge and condemn a group of people in the midst of donating clothes to a charity organization in a bad part of town.

Anyway, thanks again for the help, Bling. Let's just assume all of the above questions were rhetorical, 'cause I honestly have a splitting headache thinking about all this stuff and don't know if I'll have the energy to reply to anyone. lol Just being honest.

Thank you for your response, it is more going on the offensive than trying to be defensive about sinning. I agree with what you are saying and thought for a long time Christians just cannot keep from sinning. My thinking got turned around while teaching young Christian men in prison and what they did 24/7. Those young Christians (it was a youth prison for 13-21 that had done some big time crime [this was not a reform school]) at conversion they had to make huge changes, huge sacrifices and hold their ground under severe beatings and persecution. (this is a long story)

I'll keep reading the scriptures and your posts and other posts on here until something clicks. In the mean time, if you guys can pray that I receive the Holy Spirit, I'd really appreciate it. I know it says, "ask and you shall receive." But I've asked, fasted, prayed, and have not yet received. So perhaps prayers from those who have a stronger spiritual base, or strong faith, or the Holy Spirit, will actually reach God with their prayers better/quicker than I can.

Thanks again to everyone for the help. I can at least walk away now knowing the answer to the question in my original post. Which is a good step.

Take care, guys.

Please seek out a real Christian (you might have to look where there is big time needy people) and let them listen to you and study with you.

CantThinkofaUserName · Sep 28, 2011

Bling, thanks a lot for your reply. I have someone who I talk to about this stuff, but when they're not available, I sometimes post on here.

I know this thread has taken 43 turns since the last page, but can one have faith and not yet be indwelled with the Holy Spirit? Or are they synonymous with one another?

St_Worm2 · Sep 28, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
... can one have faith and not yet be indwelled with the Holy Spirit? Or are they synonymous with one another?

Of saving faith Paul writes,

"If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him" Romans 8:9b

Yours and His,
David

CantThinkofaUserName · Sep 28, 2011

Nice. Thanks, David.

bling · Sep 29, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Bling, thanks a lot for your reply. I have someone who I talk to about this stuff, but when they're not available, I sometimes post on here.

I know this thread has taken 43 turns since the last page, but can one have faith and not yet be indwelled with the Holy Spirit? Or are they synonymous with one another?

Contrary to what our Calvin freinds are saying use statements written to Christians and not about nonChristians. YES you can have a "faith" without the indwelling Holy Spirit.

We all have faith (trust) in something (most of the time it is ourselves), so what we need to do is extend that faith (trust) toward a creator.

Trusting in the existence of God has been made extremely easy by everything around us, especially (for me) living things since life is unexplainable, unbelievably complex and simply beautiful.

God has also given us plenty of good reason to want to believe (trust) Him, since we have failed so badly, hurt so many people, and have really no other place to go.

Trusting God is something the lowliest mature adult person on earth can do and it is really an act of giving up on self, so it is a small act of humility, but that humility is enough to allow one to accept Gods Charity (Forgiveness).

CantThinkofaUserName · Sep 30, 2011

Okay, thanks! Think I'll need to read up and and get clear on what faith really means.

But if I can ask one last question: How exactly does one "get" faith? I mean I know that it says by, "...hearing, and hearing by the word of God." But what exactly does "hearing" mean? And how do you "hear?"

razeontherock · Sep 30, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
I'll need to read up and and get clear on what faith really means.

I think you have no idea how large an undertaking you just described in those few words! Here's something relevant I will share: I learned to read by reading the Bible. As a very small child, I read Jesus talking about this foreign thing He called "Faith," and also about believing. I wasn't sure if the two were the same or not, but I knew for sure I had no idea what He meant. It seemed perfectly logical to me to ask God to give me Faith. Not something I had in mind, but whatever it was HE meant. And this was FAR from a one-time occurrence ...

40+ years later finding CF, many people describe "the gift of Faith" in a way that I perceive as something I have taken for granted and relied upon for a very long time now. Coincidence? I think not!

Do try to come to God with kind of childlike-ness.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
But if I can ask one last question: How exactly does one "get" faith? I mean I know that it says by, "...hearing, and hearing by the word of God." But what exactly does "hearing" mean? And how do you "hear?"

A couple simple points to start:

every man is given the measure of Faith. (I'm not sure we can lose or ruin that via bad decisions and trauma, but it seems like it to me)

even with just the tiniest speck of "the real thing," it can become enough, with a period of growth.

Now, onto something more involved that has really helped me:

1. Approach the Bible with the attitude that it is God speaking to you, telling you about how to relate to Him. Pray with a quiet, meditative spirit, for exactly that. Ask Him to show Himself strong to you, in ways you haven't known yet. It's ok to stir up your hunger, but try not to let that stir up your emotions.

2. Do this every morning, and every evening. We can talk about Scriptural reasons in depth later, but it is God's way.

3. As you read, anything that looks good PRAY FOR IT. Specific examples I've found powerful:

a. Is 50:4 "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to [him that is] weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. (Jesus got this, prophetically. Talk about humility!)

b. “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:” Eph 1:17

c. Realize EVERY instance of "the wicked man" in Proverbs is you (me / us). Yeah, ouch.

4. If there's time for more involved praying after this, fine; but more likely there will be other things you need to go do. Don't think they take you away from God because they DON'T! Just don't leave home w/o Him. It's in the doing that prayer seems to be most helpful. "Pray w/o ceasing," keep a prayerful attitude; there is room in His kingdom for our own unique style. The calling is to abundant LIFE.

The LORD bless you, and keep you: The LORD make his face shine upon you, and be gracious unto you: The LORD lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.

CantThinkofaUserName · Sep 30, 2011

Thanks, Raz.

Maybe the answer is right in front of my face and I just can't see it, but one thing that confuses me is this: if it's simply reading the bible that brings faith, why then did the pharisees not have faith in God? I mean they could've probably recited the bible both forward and backward by memory, no? So why did Jesus tell them they didn't know Him nor the Father? I mean can you have faith and not know the Father or Jesus? I sometimes worry about falling into that category, you know? Thinking I'm faithful, but in all actuality having the same "faith" as the pharisees.

So my second question is this: when someone does, in fact, receive faith from God, do they KNOW (not assume, but know) it?

razeontherock · Sep 30, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Thanks, Raz.

You're welcome.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Maybe the answer is right in front of my face and I just can't see it,

The answer is far less important than the Teacher, and He is closer than a Brother, and will never leave nor forsake you.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
but one thing that confuses me is this: if it's simply reading the bible that brings faith, why then did the pharisees not have faith in God? I mean they could've probably recited the bible both forward and backward by memory, no? So why did Jesus tell them they didn't know Him nor the Father? I mean can you have faith and not know the Father or Jesus? I sometimes worry about falling into that category

This feeling / thought you're expressing is a PRECIOUS thing, that we might describe as "sensitivity to the Holy Ghost." You will find many paradoxes in Scripture and in a Living Faith: die to live, labor to enter into rest, and here is the principle that when you think you're doing fine you're most likely to fall, and it's opposite that you're expressing here, that humility, and a lack of self-reliance that causes us to learn to trust in the Lord, causes God to exalt us. (In due time, of course)

So I'm saying that if you ever lose this particular fear, watch out! You can express it in a healthy fashion via what the Bible calls "watchfulness," as in, "watch and pray." There is a parable of 10 virgins in which the Lord addresses this. (Among other passages) It appears a necessity of Salvation, over the long haul.

The thing to realize is the Pharisees did NOT have Faith. They would not come to Jesus, and as I read it that is because they trusted in their OWN works and righteousness. (Isaiah told us that is a bad idea, to put it politely.)
Jesus told them they didn't know Him, because that was the Truth. They needed to hear it and although it would cut their heart to the quick, doing so was Love Incarnate. (I've been on the verge of being banned for most of my time here for that exact reason)

CantThinkofaUserName said:
, you know? Thinking I'm faithful, but in all actuality having the same "faith" as the pharisees.

Beware the leaven of the scribes and Pharisees, and a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
So my second question is this: when someone does, in fact, receive faith from God, do they KNOW (not assume, but know) it?

Oh, the reactions on this run the whole gamut of human emotion! I wish I could say being active in a "good Church" guaranteed you'd know it when it happens, receive it with thankfulness, and walk steadfastly in your new Light. I'd be very surprised if there were a single Christian on CF that could honestly say that were the case. Personally I've seen "good Churches" where Faith is received by an individual, and the reaction that individual gets is anything but supportive. I'd be very surprised if there's a single believer on CF that hasn't! BUT, I will say that in general, the concept "there is safety in the multitude of counselors" comes into play here, and being planted in a good Church will help you through this. It takes discernment on your part. If people tell you something that your Spirit rejects, seek out people you can recognize as being more mature in the Lord and get their opinion. That should include the Pastor / leader, elders, Deacons, etc.

A shorter way of saying this is anytime you get Faith, you should expect an attack from evil. Brace yourself for it! Learn what your weapons are, and realize the enemy has NO chance of taking you head-on. He is a defeated foe! Surrounding yourself with strong believers has real advantages ...

Hopefully you can tell by my response that "receiving Faith" is NOT a one-time deal? It should be happening DAILY, and yes there is Scripture to support this.

CantThinkofaUserName · Sep 30, 2011

razeontherock said:
The thing to realize is the Pharisees did NOT have Faith.

Oh, yea', I know. That's what I meant...that even though they'd read the bible, heard the word day in and day out, they still didn't have faith. Which got me wondering:

1.) How one receives faith

2.) What "hearing" really meant

I always thought that the more you read the bible (or physically "heard the Word"), that faith would eventually follow, but it seems using your ear to hear it wasn't enough for the pharisees.

razeontherock said:
Hopefully you can tell by my response that "receiving Faith" is NOT a one-time deal? It should be happening DAILY, and yes there is Scripture to support this.

I was hoping you'd make it a little easier for me, Raz. lol Just kidding. I assume (?) you're referring to Luke 9:23?

razeontherock · Sep 30, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Which got me wondering:

2.) What "hearing" really meant

EXCELLENT line of questioning! This is a spiritual concept, and for me to pretend to answer it would do the topic a dis-service. Please realize the best of us see in part, dimly. It's ok to glean what you can from your fellow mortals, but please do not neglect the source of all Wisdom, who gives freely and doesn't chide us for not already knowing.

what does hearing mean in this context? It has been said that the distance from the head to the heart is the longest distance in existence! What will it take to "penetrate?" The parable of the sower comes to mind ...

not 7 but 8 TIMES in Rev, Jesus says "he that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches." Think it must be important?

If ya wanna know what He means by that, ask Him. That's my final answer. Anything else muddies the water and distracts from the purpose, which is our relationship with HIM. Now once we've heard, that is a good time to discuss specifics with one another!

CantThinkofaUserName said:
I always thought that the more you read the bible (or physically "heard the Word"), that faith would eventually follow, but it seems using your ear to hear it wasn't enough for the pharisees.

What was their heart condition? Look at my guidelines to approach the Bible posted previously, and please realize this addresses a heart condition. Also, as a musician it is my job to prepare the hearts of others to approach the Lord.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
I was hoping you'd make it a little easier for me, Raz. lol Just kidding. I assume (?) you're referring to Luke 9:23?

Me? I confront difficult things head on. Heck, I confront impossible things head-on and refuse to give up! But this Scripture wasn't what I was thinking of, as it's not addressing Faith coming by hearing and hearing. God has shown me much of Jesus via OT Law, and that is a tedious subject for most. Suffice it to say we see our lives that are hidden with Christ via the Priestly duties, and that includes things that pre-figure us reading and praying, morning and evening. I do think that redemption and restoration of Eden, the Lord walking and talking with us in the cool of the evening, is at least partially available to us in the here and now

A juicy tidbit: hearing and hearing need not pertain merely to repetition, but to levels. Ascending levels, descending levels, expanding levels ...

"That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; (Ephesians 3:17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."

Yeah - pray for THAT

Ray

CantThinkofaUserName · Sep 30, 2011

razeontherock said:
not 7 but 8 TIMES in Rev, Jesus says "he that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches." Think it must be important?

I'm sure it is. But I really wish He hadn't used the word "ear", as I think it's literally impossible for me to be more confused than I currently am.

razeontherock said:
If ya wanna know what He means by that, ask Him. That's my final answer.

Great answer! And I will.

I'm thinking I must have previously asked, but what I'm certain of is that I spend WAY more time trying to figure out what it means, than I do asking God what it means.

razeontherock said:
"That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; (Ephesians 3:17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."

Yeah - pray for THAT

Ray

Alright, so since this has become an ask-Raz-what's-on-your-mind thread, don't want to take up too much of your time, but I just finished watching a sermon on TV a moment ago, and the guy said that the only way to know someone has the Holy Spirit within them is if they speak in tongues. He referenced Acts 19:6. What are your thoughts on this?

Bit late now, so I'll get back to the thread tomorrow, as it's almost 5am here.

Thanks again, man. And have a good night (or day if you're overseas).

razeontherock · Sep 30, 2011

CantThinkofaUserName said:
I'm sure it is. But I really wish He hadn't used the word "ear"

He has a way of being cryptic, doesn't He? I think this is intentional. Words do not really convey the point. We have many different stories, word pictures, shadows, figures, and ETC., which all point at the same Spiritual Life-giving Truths. He says them over and over, in the hopes that sooner or later we might "get it." Love does this

Do realize this is infinite, reaching to our finite-ness ...

What's an "ear?" Have you ever heard the old-time hymn, "trust and obey?"

CantThinkofaUserName said:
what I'm certain of is that I spend WAY more time trying to figure out what it means, than I do asking God what it means.

This is a necessary stage of growth. i see 2 factors involved:

1) Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God:

2) In our excessive busy-ness which never yields the fruit of the Spirit, we grow "an ear to hear." Via suffering, of course:

"But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]." (1 Peter 5:10)

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Alright, so since this has become an ask-Raz-what's-on-your-mind thread, don't want to take up too much of your time, but I just finished watching a sermon on TV a moment ago, and the guy said that the only way to know someone has the Holy Spirit within them is if they speak in tongues. He referenced Acts 19:6. What are your thoughts on this?

What's on my mind? Oh no you don't! Even when I don't use quotes and furnish book chapter verse, i speak from Scripture. That's not coming from MY mind And it is a pleasure to have the Lord Himself addressing your sincere heart.

When I do speak from my experience / opinion, etc, I say so. And that time is now. In a Christian only section there is a fun little thread with an online survey to determine what denom we should all be, and in discussing our results and why we agree or disagree with the survey, this particular Doctrine came up. One particular group that I served in for 3 1/2 years has a written statement to the effect of what you're asking about, and I NEVER heard it taught! In fact i heard it denounced from the pulpit.

What does the Bible say? The most Spiritual thing you can do is "make melody in your heart, singing to the Lord." (Eph 5:19) Again this is not limited to a literal physical sense, just like the above "have an ear." There is a deeper meaning, and I honestly don't believe any of us have plumbed the full depths of what the Author intends. I mean, He is infinite, after all.

Further, there is Scripture where some were filled with the Holy Spirit and did not speak in tongues. Further further, Marcionism is a specific heresy, and this one needs to be taught, but with balance. In my case, I asked to be Baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and the Lord saw fit to honor my request. I can also point out I would have been better off knowing the implications of Marcionism first, and if you want to know those sordid details I can go into all that, but my point is already made.

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