Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Leaf473]

I think that you could look into the uses of the words in Greek(NT) and see how they relate to the Commandments to get a good idea. I know the Greek vocabulary is rather large.

I agree with your view.

In theory, you can obey something you do not keep - but you cannot keep something you do not obey.

I have not looked it up personally, but I bet you will find the word 'keep' used more often with the word commandments than you will find the word 'obey' used with it.

Yes, I think a good place to start would be Bible hub, since they've got both Strong's and Thayer's.

 

[pescador]

I stopped reading your post after the first three sentences.
Have a nice day

Since this is a group discussion you aren't obligated to read or respond.

 

[pescador]

Yes, I think a good place to start would be Bible hub, since they've got both Strong's and Thayer's.

The Bible Gateway site is an excellent reference. They have just about every commentary that you could possibly want. www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Circumcision at 8 days is from the Covenant of Abraham. The Sabbath is from the Covenant from Moses. Are Israelites under Abrahamic or Mosaic Covenants. The answer is both. There was no negation of the previous Covenant. Can the fulfillment of one Divine covenant be a profanity of another Divine Covenant? The simple answer is no. Not possible.

To take a look the logic further. 2 parts of the commandment Sabbath and Holy. Is the act of circumcision profane/useless/everyday/willfull? No then it most likely be Holy. Then circumcision (as per Abraham) on Sabbath is not a sin as the act is holy.

Why 8 days?
If I see a internet blogger with 3 sixes in there call sign, I would not go there for any type of knowledge/opinions. Such persons are non-grata. If I should see a number 7 in their call sign, I would have more inclination to dip my feet first.

I contend that the number 7 is a sacred number, and that it is a necessary condition to be a product of the Most High (search 7 in the Bible). Note it is not sufficient. A sociopath enforcer of the Law must at the very least concede that the child may be a property of God. The eight days are 8 = 7 + 1. By doing the circumcision in 8 days you are are guaranteeing the sacred number 7 is stamped in existence of the child. Baby was circumcised on the 8th day. His age is 7.xxxxx. No matter what number is xxxxx, 7 is stamped on the childs existence. If it is any other days, there is no guarantee that 7 will be expressed in y.xxxxx. where y <>7. It is not recommended to ignorantly disparage something with 7 marked on their existence as it may by a property of God. There is protection for the child with the Abrahamic Covenant.

Yes, circumcision was allowed on the Sabbath, and priests working at sacrificing animals was allowed. Both of those activities were directed by God.

For Christians, on what day are we allowed to do our own work, work not directed by God?

It looks to me like there is no day for that. We are bought with a price, we do not belong to ourselves, there is no "my work".

This fits well with the idea that if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law.

 

[Leaf473]

Circumcision at 8 days is from the Covenant of Abraham. The Sabbath is from the Covenant from Moses. Are Israelites under Abrahamic or Mosaic Covenants. The answer is both. There was no negation of the previous Covenant. Can the fulfillment of one Divine covenant be a profanity of another Divine Covenant? The simple answer is no. Not possible.

To take a look the logic further. 2 parts of the commandment Sabbath and Holy. Is the act of circumcision profane/useless/everyday/willfull? No then it most likely be Holy. Then circumcision (as per Abraham) on Sabbath is not a sin as the act is holy.

Why 8 days?
If I see a internet blogger with 3 sixes in there call sign, I would not go there for any type of knowledge/opinions. Such persons are non-grata. If I should see a number 7 in their call sign, I would have more inclination to dip my feet first.

I contend that the number 7 is a sacred number, and that it is a necessary condition to be a product of the Most High (search 7 in the Bible). Note it is not sufficient. A sociopath enforcer of the Law must at the very least concede that the child may be a property of God. The eight days are 8 = 7 + 1. By doing the circumcision in 8 days you are are guaranteeing the sacred number 7 is stamped in existence of the child. Baby was circumcised on the 8th day. His age is 7.xxxxx. No matter what number is xxxxx, 7 is stamped on the childs existence. If it is any other days, there is no guarantee that 7 will be expressed in y.xxxxx. where y <>7. It is not recommended to ignorantly disparage something with 7 marked on their existence as it may by a property of God. There is protection for the child with the Abrahamic Covenant.

Also, I'm not following your math.

Suppose a child is born on Sunday. They are circumcised eight days later which is the following Sunday, isn't it?

If he was born at, say, 8:00 a.m. and circumcised at 9:00 a.m. that's about 8.0417, isn't it?

Did I miss something?

 

[Leaf473]

They were commanded to work - but sacred ministry -- while it is work... is not a violation of the worship criteria for Sabbath seen in Lev 23:3 and Is 66:23.

Yes, that's right.

And then the next step,

As Christians we are holy.
Everything we do, we do in the name of the Lord.
Every step we take is led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, that's right.

And then the next step,

As Christians we are holy.
Everything we do, we do in the name of the Lord.
Every step we take is led by the Holy Spirit.

Or at least that is how we would like to think of it. The life of Peter shows that even for the saints "mistakes are possible". Peter gets hammered in Gal 2:11-14

 

[Nathan@work]

The Sabbath commandment is key to knowing God. One we are allowing God to be God. He commanded us to keep His seventh day Holy. He asked us to REMEMBER it. Do you know how the Sabbath was changed? There is clear documentation on it which I will be happy to provide if you want. Sunday worship does not come from the Bible. There is no scripture in the Bible asking us to keep the first day Holy or that it’s God’s Sabbath- His chosen day.

Sabbath is a day we dedicate getting to know Him.

Mathew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness

How do we know Him? By studying His Word, praying and keeping Sabbath a day about worship Leviticus 23:3 Isaiah 66:23 and sharing with others. Acts 17:2

We know we are abiding in God’s love when we keep His commandments. John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

There is “another spirit” out there and how we know which one we are following is when we keep God’s laws and God’s Words and not commandments of man.
Both want our souls, only Jesus leads to eternal life, the other to destruction.

I know I post this a lot but it’s one of the last verses in the Bible. I do not think its there by accident.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God bless

I do not see where or how the Sabbath is the key to knowing God. If it were, do you not think that it would be a focus, if even just a little, in the New Testament?

There are less than a handful of passages that teach on it. Most of the time it is talked about it is always how the Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus with it - they completely misunderstood what it was. The rest of the time it is just used in describing a time period in a story.

Think about it for a little bit. The ‘religious’ people of that day were more focused on the Scriptures than we could ever even think about being these days.

But when the very Son of God was standing in front of them not only could they not see the life they were searching for in their ‘Bible’, they used it to try and accuse the Author of their ‘Bible’ of sin.

There is no need to show me the fallacy of people who think Sunday is the Sabbath or the Lords day. I know it’s not. I know where it came from and the history behind it.

Sunday is simply Sunday. First day of the week in our culture.

That is one of those things that are simple. What really blows me away are all of the other pagan traditions that are incorporated into a ‘church service’, which came from the same historical line as Sunday worship days.

Those are numerous, and not only limited to people who meet on Sunday. Saturday worshipers have them also.

But I suppose that’s another topic other than this thread.

 

[Freth]

I wasn't being hateful. I apologize if it came across that way. It wasn't my intention.

You repeatedly stated that "the flesh can't know" how to obey the law of God, but also stated that "I know when I am walking according to my flesh, and I know when I am walking according to the Spirit." Then you asked, "So, the question is, what can the flesh know?" This seemed disingenuous to me, because of the contradiction (which I thought was intentional); that you can walk according to the Spirit, but others cannot. The Holy Spirit works wherever it can find fertile ground, in Christians and non-Christians alike.

"God ‘puts’ the law into the mind, and ‘writes’ it onto the heart, of the house of Israel."

The law of God is written in all hearts, not just those of Israel (Romans 2:14-15). Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Ephesians 2:11-13; Ephesians 2:19; Ephesians 3:6; Romans 11:17-24).

"His laws are not something we choose to keep - if we are of the house of Israel we have them written and placed by God Himself. We will keep them - unless you believe you are stronger than the hand of God?"

Non-Christians make decisions of the law in their hearts every day. It tells them they should honor their parents, always be truthful, not steal and not murder. It even tugs at them to worship their creator. The Holy Spirit works on the heart.

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they have other gods before Him. The flesh cannot know!

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they have made an idol. The flesh cannot know!

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they are taking His name in vain. The flesh cannot know!

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they are observing the Sabbath. The flesh cannot know!

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they are honoring their parents. The flesh cannot know!

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they are not murdering. The flesh cannot know!

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they are not committing adultery. The flesh cannot know!

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they are not stealing. The flesh cannot know!

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they are not lying. The flesh cannot know!

The flesh will deceive a person, thinking they know when they are not coveting. The flesh cannot know!

The lie from the beginning has continued through out all generations. The flesh thinks it knows good from evil - the flesh cannot know!

The flesh cannot know good from evil?

• Adam and Eve fell and gained the knowledge of good and evil from eating the forbidden fruit.
  
• All know the difference between good and evil.
  
• Repentance is remorse for doing evil, knowing that we should be doing good.

Where the Holy Spirit can work, it will. God's law is always there in our hearts, so that we can know what is good and what is evil, what is right and what is wrong.

Again, I apologize if you felt I was being hateful. I'll try to do better.

 

[HIM]

The law of God is written in all hearts, not just those of Israel (Romans 2:14-15). Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Ephesians 2:11-13; Ephesians 2:19; Ephesians 3:6; Romans 11:17-24).



Non-Christians make decisions of the law in their hearts every day. It tells them they should honor their parents, always be truthful, not steal and not murder. It even tugs at them to worship their creator. The Holy Spirit works on the heart.

Amen, however it is more than the Law per se that is in our hearts.

It is the word, the Book of the law. The commandments and statutes. God's word in it's entirety through and in Christ. All that deal with our loving relationship with God and our fellow brothers and sisters. This is the word of Faith in which we preach or should preach. Please notice that Romans 10 is a paraphrase of Deut 30. Also take note that in Deut 30 the Judgments are not mentioned as being placed in our hearts and mouths and this which is being spoken to Israel is being spoken in the present tense. The here and now.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word in the flesh) down from above)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word in the flesh) again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word (Christ the word in the flesh) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

 

[Freth]

Amen, however it is more than the Law per se that is in our hearts.

It is the word, the Book of the law. The commandments and statutes. God's word in it's entirety through and in Christ. All that deal with our loving relationship with God and our fellow brothers and sisters. This is the word of Faith in which we preach or should preach. Please notice that Romans 10 is a paraphrase of Deut 30. Also take note that in Deut 30 the Judgments are not mentioned as being placed in our hearts and mouths and this which is being spoken to Israel is being spoken in the present tense. The here and now.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word in the flesh) down from above)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word in the flesh) again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word (Christ the word in the flesh) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

I agree. I said something similar in another somewhat related thread asking about what the true gospel is.

Excerpt:

The word of God is the complete Gospel and the law.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.​

Jesus is the word made flesh.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
​

You can't separate God from His Word. You can't separate the law from His Word. You can't separate Jesus from God, nor the Word, nor the Law, because Jesus is the Word made flesh and He taught it all.

 

[HIM]

I agree. I said something similar in another somewhat related thread asking about what the true gospel is.

Excerpt:

The word of God is the complete Gospel and the law.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.​

Jesus is the word made flesh.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
​

You can't separate God from His Word. You can't separate the law from His Word. You can't separate Jesus from God, nor the Word, nor the Law, because Jesus is the Word made flesh and He taught it all.

Amen.
Jesus the Word manifested in the flesh, Christ in us, we in Him. That He be the first among many brethren. The word manifested in our flesh, our hearts, this is the Faith in which we preach. For we are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us but Christ liveth in us. And the Life we now live in the flesh we live by the FAITH OF the Son of God whom gave himself for us. Thereby We keep Guard, keep what has been placed in our hearts, which is the faith wherein we stand.

 

[Chi.C]

bye

 

[Clare73]

Amen, however it is more than the Law per se that is in our hearts.

It is the word, the Book of the law. The commandments and statutes. God's word in it's entirety

You think Romans 3:9-20, Romans 9, etc. are in our hearts?

through and in Christ. All that deal with our loving relationship with God and our fellow brothers and sisters. This is the word of Faith in which we preach or should preach. Please notice that Romans 10 is a paraphrase of Deut 30. Also take note that in Deut 30 the Judgments are not mentioned as being placed in our hearts and mouths and this which is being spoken to Israel is being spoken in the present tense. The here and now.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word in the flesh) down from above)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word in the flesh) again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word (Christ the word in the flesh) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

 

[Chi.C]

bye

 

[BobRyan]

I do not see where or how the Sabbath is the key to knowing God. If it were, do you not think that it would be a focus, if even just a little, in the New Testament?

Ok -- in the "just a little" category we have
Acts 18:4 "EVERY SABBATH" they met for Gospel preaching to both Jews and gentiles - as given by Paul.
Acts 13 - Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching
Acts 17 - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching.

Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" in the New Earth.

=================

Nothing like that in the NT for "week day 1" when it comes to Gospel preaching

By contrast in the NT not one single quote of the commandment "do not take God's name in vain" -- yet we all know it still matters if one does that or not.

how is this not very clear to all??

There is no need to show me the fallacy of people who think Sunday is the Sabbath or the Lords day. I know it’s not. I know where it came from and the history behind it.

Sunday is simply Sunday. First day of the week in our culture.

true.

 

[Clare73]

Isaiah 66:22-23 - "As the new heavens and earth that I make will endure before me. . .From one New Moon to another, from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before me to worship."

"From one New Moon to another, from Sabbath to Sabbath". . .is without interruption--full-time, as in Jesus' fulfillment of God's own full-time (Heb 4:3b-4) Sabbath-rest, into which we enter in his salvation-rest from our work to save and in his finished work which has saved (Heb 3:7-4:11).

 

[Leaf473]

Exodus 20:11 says that it is from Eden. Genesis 2:1-3

What is interesting is that scholars in almost all Christian denominations on planet Earth - appear to agree with that Bible detail. see it on this thread #1

Yes from our human perspective, since we live in time, there were at least six days before the commandment arrived to us.

 

[Nathan@work]

I wasn't being hateful. I apologize if it came across that way. It wasn't my intention.

You repeatedly stated that "the flesh can't know" how to obey the law of God, but also stated that "I know when I am walking according to my flesh, and I know when I am walking according to the Spirit." Then you asked, "So, the question is, what can the flesh know?" This seemed disingenuous to me, because of the contradiction (which I thought was intentional); that you can walk according to the Spirit, but others cannot. The Holy Spirit works wherever it can find fertile ground, in Christians and non-Christians alike.



The law of God is written in all hearts, not just those of Israel (Romans 2:14-15). Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Ephesians 2:11-13; Ephesians 2:19; Ephesians 3:6; Romans 11:17-24).



Non-Christians make decisions of the law in their hearts every day. It tells them they should honor their parents, always be truthful, not steal and not murder. It even tugs at them to worship their creator. The Holy Spirit works on the heart.



The flesh cannot know good from evil?

• Adam and Eve fell and gained the knowledge of good and evil from eating the forbidden fruit.
  
• All know the difference between good and evil.
  
• Repentance is remorse for doing evil, knowing that we should be doing good.

Where the Holy Spirit can work, it will. God's law is always there in our hearts, so that we can know what is good and what is evil, what is right and what is wrong.

Again, I apologize if you felt I was being hateful. I'll try to do better.

I hold nothing against you. Just letting you know how it sounded to me.

The laws of God demand perfection, not to try and obey - they demand perfection and anything less is a break of them all.

The flesh does not, can not, know that perfection. Why? Because only God is perfect.

So my statements stand. The flesh cannot know the laws of God, but I can know when I’m in my flesh and when I am following the Spirit.

My question was a serious one. And it was based on the previous statements. Humankind is so puffed up with what it thinks it knows, that the things it truly knows are often put aside in favor of the other.

The flesh can know it does not, cannot, fulfill the commands of God. This is what the flesh can know. However, as stated before, instead of knowing this and acting accordingly most often the flesh puts it aside and fools itself into thinking it can know.

Adam and Eve, after eating, knew of good and evil. Nowhere does it say they then had the power of God to discern between them. Yes, people know there is good and they know there is evil.

Knowing the difference is something we do not posses without the Spirit of God. In order to know the difference you have to know what pure good is. Because we are not God it is impossible.

We can know(before God) a level of good, but our knowledge will alway be infused with evil. Only when we have the Spirit can we know good, at that itself is only on an experiential basis. We know good because we follow the lead of Him Who is good.

Why do you think Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden? It was not because God was afraid of them.

 

[Nathan@work]

Ok -- in the "just a little" category we have
Acts 18:4 "EVERY SABBATH" they met for Gospel preaching to both Jews and gentiles - as given by Paul.
Acts 13 - Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching
Acts 17 - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching.

Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" in the New Earth.

=================

Nothing like that in the NT for "week day 1" when it comes to Gospel preaching

By contrast in the NT not one single quote of the commandment "do not take God's name in vain" -- yet we all know it still matters if one does that or not.

how is this not very clear to all??



true.

Those are are examples of a time period in a story. Not in actual teaching.