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Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Nathan@work

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Eve was deceived but she willingly sinned. God told her she could eat whatever she wanted except for one tree. Satan casted doubt in her mind that continues today around God's laws Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Look how many arguments are around one law, God's Holy Sabbath that He asked us to REMEMBER.

We are judged based on our knowledge. If you know the truth and turn away from it its sin. We all are fortunate to have God's Word, the Holy Bible. We should all study it for ourselves and ask the Holy Spirit for Truth and Guidance so we are not deceived.

Wouldnt that be an oxymoron, Eve being deceived but willingly sinned?

Doubt is different than deception. Nowhere does it say that Eve doubted God or think that He was somehow withholding something from them.

We have to remember that they had no knowledge of evil at the time.

*Eve did not know she was doing wrong because they had no knowledge of wrong.

My discussion is not directed at one law. I know you feel that way because that is the one law that SDA puts higher than the rest(sometimes intentionally, sometimes not). I am well aware of this. I have experience with this.

My discussion is about the entire law. God's commandments are inseparable from each other. Break one, break them all. Moses exemplified this when he came down off the mountain.
 
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Nathan@work

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Yes.
Psalms 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

Ok, just to make I understand you correctly. They were commandments to all mankind from Adam on?

I am not saying I disagree, I just want to make sure of the basis for this discussion.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Wouldnt that be an oxymoron, Eve being deceived but willingly sinned?

Doubt is different than deception. Nowhere does it say that Eve doubted God or think that He was somehow withholding something from them.

We have to remember that they had no knowledge of evil at the time.

My discussion is not directed at one law. I know you feel that way because that is the one law that SDA puts higher than the rest(sometimes intentionally, sometimes not). I am well aware of this. I have experience with this.

My discussion is about the entire law. God's commandments are inseparable from each other. Break one, break them all. Moses exemplified this when he came down off the mountain.
This will be quick because I have to run but can explain later.

That is not true we do not put one law above another. The only law that seems to be continually attacked is God's 4th commandment that He said to "REMEMBER". God made this commandment different, maybe because He knew people would forget. Breaking any of God's laws is considered sinning including the 4th. Most churches agree with 9 out of the 10 or 8 out of the 10. SDA's and some other Sabbath-keeping churches believe in all 10 commandments because they are eternal and Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Mathew 4:4

Also I don't think it's an oxymoron that Eve was deceived and willingly sinned. God gave her a commandment. She believed the "other spirit" instead of God which is still happening today.

Hope you have a blessed day, will check in later. :)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Ok, just to make I understand you correctly. They were commandments to all mankind from Adam on?

I am not saying I disagree, I just want to make sure of the basis for this discussion.
I think they were established before Adam. God created the Sabbath from the beginning (Genesis 2:2,3) and we will be worshipping God on Sabbath forever in Heaven Isaiah 66:23. I think its reasonable to believe God's laws which we are told are eternal started before Adam. Lucifer was thrown out of Heaven for sinning, so there had to be laws in Heaven.
 
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Leaf473

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I was thinking about this question early this morning. I am not sure if it ever got asked, or if it ever got answered, but there is so much to dig through I thought I would put it out.

Are the 10 commandments eternal? As in, having no beginning and no end?
Great question!
I would say no, because the Sabbath was made for humans, and there was a time when there were no humans.
 
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Nathan@work

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I think they were established before Adam. God created the Sabbath from the beginning (Genesis 2:2,3) and we will be worshipping God on Sabbath forever in Heaven Isaiah 66:23. I think its reasonable to believe God's laws which we are told are eternal started before Adam. Lucifer was thrown out of Heaven for sinning, so there had to be laws in Heaven.

If the commands were created, then that would mean they are not eternal.

Interesting side note I noticed when I hovered over the Isaiah 66:23 link. Isaiah speaks of "one new moon to the next".

But when you read Revelation, there is not going to be any night.

We know God created the "lights in the expanses"(the moon being one) in order for signs and seasons.

In eternity it does not seem this is needed any longer.

Do you believe people will be able to break God's commands in eternity?
 
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Leaf473

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God’s Word disagrees with your statement which is why God specifically made Holy, Sanctified and only Blessed the seventh day. It does not say a Holy day. You can worship God every day, but we are still required to keep the 4th commandment. God tells us to work on days 1-6. We give thanks to Him daily for all His blessing, but He wrote and spoke these Words:

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Which particular statement in my post do you feel God's word disagrees with?
 
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Leaf473

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How many of God's laws do you think we unknowingly transgress? I bet it is a lot.

Jesus pointed out a few for us. Being mad at someone is the same as killing them. Looking at a woman with desire is the same as actually being with her. Do you think these are the only two like that?

What about the Sabbath? Do you think that one is unlike the rest, that it is simple to understand and there is no way to unknowingly break it? Do you think you obey the commandment exactly as God commands it - perfectly?
The part in James comes to mind about how we all sin in many ways.
 
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Leaf473

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Wouldnt that be an oxymoron, Eve being deceived but willingly sinned?

Doubt is different than deception. Nowhere does it say that Eve doubted God or think that He was somehow withholding something from them.

We have to remember that they had no knowledge of evil at the time.

*Eve did not know she was doing wrong because they had no knowledge of wrong.

My discussion is not directed at one law. I know you feel that way because that is the one law that SDA puts higher than the rest(sometimes intentionally, sometimes not). I am well aware of this. I have experience with this.

My discussion is about the entire law. God's commandments are inseparable from each other. Break one, break them all. Moses exemplified this when he came down off the mountain.
"Nowhere does it say that Eve doubted God or think that He was somehow withholding something from them."

Now that you say that, I believe you are correct!

It's something we read into the text, and it's so common that we don't even realize it anymore.
 
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Leaf473

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The Sabbath command or the Sabbath day was made for humans?
I don't think the Sabbath command could be separated from the Sabbath day, the Seventh day. That's how I see it. How do you see it?
 
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Davy

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Those were sin against the Ten Commandments, which were the moral law, and which were not removed, but were written on our hearts (Heb 8:10), and subsumed in Jesus' two commandments (Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8-10).

God's law against murder, manslayer, etc., is about the civil law, as five of the Ten Commandments are about the civil relations between man and man, and the other five are between God and man. God's law against prostitution is not in the Ten Commandments, neither is sodomy, nor perjury, so Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 1 is definitely referring to God's laws and not just to the Ten Commandments or what some call the "moral law". Further proof that this is so is easy, since these laws are still on the books in many states in the U.S. and western society in general.

One of the things I find many brethren in Christ fail to understand regarding God's law in Christian society is their lack of knowledge that God gave the tribe of Judah the responsibility of lawgiver all the way up to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. This specifically is one of the prophecies that Jacob gave to his son Judah, including for the last days.

Gen 49:1
And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."
KJV


Gen 49:9-12
9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.


11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
KJV



That is why even Jews that believe on Jesus still have a propensity to try and keep God's laws. He gave it to them for to protect the rest of us in a peaceful society. So really arguments trying to do away with God's laws is really stupid, because God has ordained Judah (Jews) to be lawgiver among His people all the way up to Christ's future return. That is what Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 1 says God's law is for, not to protect sinners and the ungodly, but to protect the righteous. Seeking to remove God's laws in Christian society is of the devil and the children of darkness.
 
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Davy

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They aren't lost in the
1) prophecies relating to the return from exile:
Jer 3:18, 31:27 (where Israel is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes)
Eze 37:15-22 (where Ephraim is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes)

2) return from exile: Ezra 6:17
the remnant that returned was from all the tribes

3) NT: Ac 26:7; Jas 1:1

The ten tribe northern kingdom after Solomon's days, called the "house of Israel", or just "Israel", or "Samaria", or "Ephraim", or "kingdom of Israel", was scattered to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, never to return in majority. They are still scattered out of the holy land to this day. Only a small remnant of the northern ten tribes chose to trek south and join with the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem when king Jeroboam of Ephraim setup the two gold calf idols in false worship.

Per Ezra 1:5, and Ezra 2, none... of the northern ten tribes of Israel are mentioned returning. The 'only'... tribes mentioned returning are the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and some of the Levites, and strangers that went captive to Babylon with them, including the Nethinims which were the leftover Canaanites that became temple servants.

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the ten tribes of Israel were still scattered beyond Euphrates in his day, and were a great number.

So I don't know where some get the idea that the ten tribes of Israel returned already, because that is pure myth, not Biblical nor historical.
 
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Clare73

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Hi again,

I was having a discussion with a friend and hoping you will consider these scriptures in regards to God's 4th commandment and how "rest" is referenced.

None of these scriptures provided says anywhere that the Sabbath is eternally fulfilled in Christ and God's 4th commandment is abolished. Let's look at the detail of the scriptures quoted.
Thanks, I will examine them.

But keep in mind that the issue in Heb 4:1-13 is not about Hebrews failing to observe the Sabbath, but about some NT Hebrews who, because of persecution by the Jews and threatened disinheritance from their families, were considering a return to their OT religion, which the writer of Hebrews characterizes as failing to enter God's full-time Sabbath-rest because of unbelief.
Many get mixed up in the "shadows" because they do not understand the difference between God's eternal law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is in the old and new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and the prophetic shadow laws that point to things to come in the body of Christ for remission of sins that are a part of Gods salvation for all mankind *Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 10:1-17.
It is "impossible" for Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath of the 10 commandments to be a "shadow law" of anything but here is the reasons why....

1. God's Sabbath was made "before" sin and before the laws and Gods' plan of salvation was given to all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3
Indeed. . .and in Scripture we find no giving of the day of God's rest to mankind until the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 19:3-8) conditions (Exodus 20:11), so we must not, and cannot assume that it was given earlier.
2. According to the scriptures the Sabbath was made for mankind when mankind was in perfect harmony with their creator and sinless and walked and talked with God face to face. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day and the Sabbath was made for mankind on the seventh day *Genesis 1:26-31; Genesis 2:1-3 and Mark 2:27 of creation where God blessed the "seventh day" of creation and made it a holy day of rest for all mankind.

3. God's Sabbath is a part of the "finished work of creation" it is day seven of a seven day week that God blessed and made a holy day of rest for all man *Genesis 2:1-3

4. God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments points "backwards" to the finished work of creation, not "forwards" to things to come. For example God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments starts off as "REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY" (memorial - remember) - Exodus 20:8. God's 4th commandment therefore is a "memorial" of the "finished work of creation" this is also shown when it is written " [10], But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God" and also the reason for the memorial commandment that points backward to the "finished work of creation" as further evidence is given in "v11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: why the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

5. There was no JEW, there was no ISRAEL and there was no Moses when God made the "seventh" day Sabbath rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27. Jesus is Lord and creator of the Sabbath and he commands his people to keep it as a memorial of the finished work of creation and a holy day rest and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth *Mark 2:28; Exodus 20:8-11; James 2:10-11; Hebrews 4:9
6. Shadow laws point "forward" to things to come not backwards to things completed which the Sabbath and God's 4th commandments points back to.
Types, patterns, shadows are physical realities that point to spiritual realities to come.

Hebrews 4:1-13 reveals the New Covenant spiritual reality of the physical rest of the Old Covenant Sabbath day for the people of God, which emphasis was on rest (Exodus 23:3; Deuteronomy 5:14), and about which God was most emphatic (Exodus 31:14-15, 35:2-3; Numbers 15:32-36; Jeremiah 17:21-22, 27). In light of its NT eternal spiritual reality of salvation-rest in Christ, we can see why so much emphasis was placed by God on rest.

It is God's own full-time (v.3b) Sabbath-rest (Hebrews 4:10) we enter into in the NT full-time spiritual salvation-rest of Jesus Christ, where we rest from our work to save and rest in Jesus finished work which saves, and which these NT Hebrews were in danger of not entering by returning to their OT religion.
7. JESUS is the Lord and creator of the Sabbath and kept it as a holy day of rest and taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath the way he intended it to be kept.
Jesus taught us how to keep all the Levitical laws which are no longer in force--sacrifices, feasts, days, years, etc., not just how to keep the Sabbath.
8. The Sabbath will continue to be kept after the second coming in the new heavens and new earth. *Isaiah 66:22-23.
Yes, for all eternity, we will rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross. The spiritual Sabbath-rest of Hebrews 4:1-13 is eternal, as is the priesthood of Melchizedek, the removal of sin by the atoning sacrifice for those in Christ, the adoption as sons of God, the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc. are all eternal.
The above scriptural evidence is provided to prove that it is impossible and not biblical to claim that the Sabbath is a shadow of anything. God does not change his laws so that we are free to break them.

Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 actually prove the Sabbath is still to be kept by the people of God who believe and follow Gods Word and that we enter into God's Sabbath rest only as we believe and follow Gods' Word. Let's look at what the scriptures actually say. The key here is letting the scriptures define what "God's Rest" in Hebrews 4.

WHAT IS GOD'S REST/HIS REST/MY REST IN HEBREWS 4 AND OTHER SCRIPTURE?

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
[4], FOR HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE (GENSIS 2:1-3) OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
[5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

NOTE
: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD enter into that rest which God's WORD defines as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is GOD'S REST! Let's continue...

6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”
10], For he that is entered into HIS REST (v9 God's SABBATH REST), he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11],LET US LABOR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST (God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST), lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (HEBREWS 3).
In relation to the physical rest of Ex 20, which your responder here maintains, what does that even mean--labor to rest?
HEBREWS 3 is not about the Sabbath-rest of Ex 20. It is about the NT spiritual Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ which is entered into only through belief.
Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 are talking about both the Gospel rest of believing and following God's word;
That is faith. How is faith related to the physical rest of the Sabbath commanded by God in Ex 20? There is no connection in Heb 3 and 4 between believing God's word and the physical Sabbath rest of Ex 20.
Association of texts is not connection of texts.

v29 Learn of me; v30 my burden (doing) is light. This agrees with Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it, and God’s rest they enter into which is the seventh day Sabbath rest of Genesis 2:1-3.
The gospel preached to the OT Hebrews which they did not believe (Heb 4:2) was not the gospel of Mt 11, it was the gospel preached to Abraham (Galatians 3:8). So the association being made here is:
Mt 11 light burden-->gospel preached, not believed-->Sabbath physical rest. There is no connection in that association.

Again, association of texts is not connection of texts.

Faith is the issue here, and is not addressed in the explanation above. Hebrews 4:3 shows that the writer of Hebrews is using the example of Israel's refusal to go into Canaan--because of unbelief, causing God to shut out (Numbers 14:21-35) a whole generation of Israelites (Hebrews 4:3) from the Canaan-rest from their enemies--as a warning not to refuse to go into NT salvation-rest because of unbelief, a warning not to return to their OT religion.
This agrees with Hebrews 4:1-5 where the topic is not our rest but God’s rest
The topic is our entering (v.1) into God's full-time rest (v.3b) of salvation without works. There is a spiritual rest remaining for the people of faith, in God's own full-time Sabbath-rest. Faith is not related to physical rest, it is related to God's full-time spiritual salvation-rest in Jesus Christ.
from the seventh day after finishing creation on the seventh day Sabbath in reference to His Rest v1; My Rest v3-5with v4 saying For he spoke in a certain place (Genesis 2:1-3) of the seventh day on this wise, and God did rest the seventh day from all his works. Hebrews 4:9-11 showing that it remains for the people of God to enter into God’s rest and continue keeping the seventh day Sabbath by believing and following Gods’ Word – the gospel (the Word of God).
NT Hebrews are being warned to keep the Sabbath? Hardly.

Actually, it's Hebrews 4:9-11 showing that
Canaan rest was no longer available (Hebrews 4:3),
but there still remains a spiritual Sabbath-rest in God for those NT Hebrews, which was not a rest from physical works, but rest from spiritual works to earn salvation.
because God again set a certain day, calling it TODAY (Hebrews 4:6-7),
which is not rest in Canaan whose doors are closed (Hebrews 4:3),
but is the full-time Sabbath-rest of God, in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, where the believer rests full-time from his own spiritual works to save and rests in Christ's work which has saved.

I think I have to conclude that your responder here
1) did not address Heb 4:1-13 in its context; i.e., failing to enter God's full-time Sabbath rest due to unbelief, and that
2) he regards what he personally sees as associations to be actual linking connections in Scripture.

Association does not establish connection of texts, and is a much-flawed hermeneutic being used by some on these threads.

Complete exegesis of Heb 3:7-4:13 is found in
post #1259,
Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?
 
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Clare73

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"Nowhere does it say that Eve doubted God or think that He was somehow withholding something from them."

Now that you say that, I believe you are correct!

It's something we read into the text, and it's so common that we don't even realize it anymore.
Check out what Satan told her. . .God was withholding something good from them.
 
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Nathan@work

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I don't think the Sabbath command could be separated from the Sabbath day, the Seventh day. That's how I see it. How do you see it?

Well, we were talking about the 10 commandments being eternal or not. If they are not, then the Sabbath command is not. However, we know the Sabbath day(actual day) was a created one - so it cannot be eternal.

So, to answer the question, it all depends on how you view the definition. :) I believe they are separate but intrinsic.

Me, God's law is eternal because it is a part of Him. The 'purpose' of His law can change states without it changing who He is.

There will never be a time when He will allow us to have other gods before Him. However, there will be a time when we will not consider having other gods before him.

There will never be a time when we will be allowed to murder. However, there will be a time when we will not even consider murdering(on any level including hating our brother).

The principle can be applied to all the commandments.
 
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