Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

God's laws can't be removed. They are the basis of His suzerainty treaty with us: a one-way street in which He has 100% control. However, it is critical to understand that Jesus was sacrificed on the cross as penalty for all violations of the treaty for all time.

pescador said:

God's laws can't be removed. They are the basis of His suzerainty treaty with us: a one-way street in which He has 100% control. However, it is critical to understand that Jesus was sacrificed on the cross as penalty for all violations of the treaty for all time.

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Both the Covenant of Circumcision and the Mosaic Covenant were bilateral, not unilateral.
Both are now obsolete (Heb 8:3).

Clare73 said:

The Mosaic Covenant was bilateral, not unilateral.
It is now obsolete (Heb 8:3).

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So God is under some kind of obligation to people? Can you give me a single example of God having to do something that people tell Him to do? What penalty does God have to pay for violating our terms?

Hebrews 8:3, "Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer." How does this have anything to do with the first covenant being obsolete?

Nathan@work said:

All of them.

The extent is by Faith in Christ.

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When was the last year you observed a complete rest from all of your labor?

bbbbbbb said:

When was the last year you observed a complete rest from all of your labor?

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2020

I’m three months into this one in case your wondering.

Clare73 said:

Both the Covenant of Circumcision and the Mosaic Covenant were bilateral, not unilateral.
Both covenants are no longer in force. (Heb 8:3).

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pescador said:

So God is under some kind of obligation to people?

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"As for me. . .You will be the father of many nations. . .kings will come from you. I will. . .be your God and the God of your descendants after you." (Ge 17:3, 6-7)
"As for you, you must keep my covenant. . .Every male among you will be circumcised." (Ge 17:9-10)

The Lord. . said: "Out of all the nations you will be my treasured possession. . .You will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." (Lev 19:3, 5-6)
"The people all responded together, 'We will do everything the Lord has said." (Lev 19:8)

Can you give me a single example of God having to do something that people tell Him to do? What penalty does God have to pay for violating our terms?

Hebrews 8:3, "Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer." How does this have anything to do with the first covenant being obsolete?

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imge said:

I said fixing a fence on Sabbath is work, I can do that any other day of the week, it is not an emergency. If my neighbor needs me to drive him to the ER because of an accident, that's a different story and I am doing good. Hope this helps.

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To be honest, I don't quite follow what you are saying.

Helping your neighbor fix their fence would be a good work, a good thing to do.

Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

Why wouldn't it be lawful to help your neighbor fix their fence, if that's a good thing to do?

Did Jesus mean it is lawful to do emergency good on the sabbath, but not non-emergency good?
That doesn't sound right to me, but what is your view?

BobRyan said:

How so?

You mean they didn't know we would drive a car to church? If so, is that what you see written in the commandments?

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Well, I mean that they probably didn't know that one day God's people would no longer sacrifice animals to get their sins forgiven. Maybe there's a Bible passage that talks about this, but I can't think of one at the moment.

They probably didn't know that the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself fulfills all the others, or that those led by the Spirit are not under the law.

pescador said:

God's laws can't be removed.

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The Levitical laws are removed (Heb 8:13; Eph 2:15; Col 2:14), and have been for almost 2,000 years now.

Clare73 said:

The Levitical laws are removed (Heb 8:13; Eph 2:15), and have been for almost 2,000 years now.

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More like fulfilled.

Ephesians 2:15 is speaking about the law as it relates to the relationship between Jew and gentile, and making them one in Christ.

The law separated Jew and gentile, and that aspect is no more. We are all one in Christ who fulfilled the law.

Nathan@work said:

More like fulfilled.

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Yeah. . .that's what I meant!

Ephesians 2:15 is speaking about the law as it relates to the relationship between Jew and gentile, and making them one in Christ.

The law separated Jew and gentile, and that aspect is no more. We are all one in Christ who fulfilled the law.

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GraceBro said:

To live a life of obedience and repentance means you have to subject yourself to a standard to measure yourself by. That standard is God's law. And He demands 100% obedience or face the consequences. I don't live a life of obedience and repentance. I live a life of trust and dependence.

A life of obedience and repentance is a life of focusing on myself and what I am doing or not doing. A life of trust and dependence is a life of focusing on God and what He is doing in and through me.

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20)."

Grace and Peace.

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I have heard this point of view before. It relies on polarising the walk of love into a walk of sin which is striving for perfection. God made a way through grace that we might aim to walk in His love and life, though we fail many times, we pick ourselves up and are changed in the process.

A legalist says it is just about laws and rules, like being in the army. Jesus says it is about the heart and purity within, honesty and openness to the things that are eternal and leaving behind the things that are of this world.

Jesus started His ministry with repent for the Kingdom of God is near. John the Baptist was the sign pointing to the Kingdom and its message was repent of you sins and accept forgiveness through baptism of water. Jesus brought baptism of the Spirit and an anointing that changes us.

The problem with the language of scripture is it is coloured by peoples experience. Many free grace followers are ex-legalists, and view faith as just obeying rules until they came under grace with no rules. We are sinners not because we sin, but because we do not dwell in Christ and His heart.

You claim to be dependent on Jesus, which if true means you can walk in His ways.
Most I have met who share like you do, find love from the heart too difficult, and are defeated within and have given up, believing Christ makes God blind to believers sin, and heaven is full of sinners clothed in a perfect cloak. For this to be true, heaven is broken.

If one holds God transforms the sinner believer into a perfect saint at the resurrection, why not turn worldly people into perfect saints as it is nothing of us and all of Him. It is a version of universalism but limited to believers. Except if a believer is no different than the world, of what value and reality is the living God living in them making? The Holy Temple is polluted and the gospel broken.

Our walk is expected to be in stages, through trials and difficulties, which is why sacrifices for the sins of Israel were always lifted up.

Listen to Paul. He wanted to present to Jesus the believers without fault or blemish on the day Jesus returns. He did not want to present sinners covered by Christs blood, defeated and failures. The apostles called those who would never enter the Kingdom those who are cowards. They meant those who compromise to sin and give up, who do not fight through and take the worlds road and are lost.
Many are called, few are chosen. The calling is worthy, but have we really responded.

Peters answer was to say make your calling certain by putting on brotherly love.
It is clear their view was transformation and communion reflected in our lives through repentance and obedience. God bless you

Chi.C said:

Sabbath vs Sunday. Not just a question of choice.

What began as a pagan ordinance ended as a Christian regulation. Close on the heels of the Edict of Constantine followed the Catholic Church Council of Laodicea (circa 364 AD):

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday (Sabbath), but shall work on that Day: but the Lord’s Day, they shall especially honour; and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ."

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Church Council of Laodicea (circa 364 AD)
Canon 29: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, that shall be shut out from Christ."

It is not just a "day of rest on week day 1" that is demanded in such laws -- it is a demand to violate the Sabbath commandment that is outright commanded in such a law (totally devoid of any concept of religious liberty).

Someone raises the objection to that scenario playing out again... "Yes but we have RFRA"!

Enter the "Equality Act" Approved by congress 4 days ago --
Equality Act with LGBTQ protections passes House, faces uncertain future in Senate

RFRA
The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, Pub. L. No. 103-141, 107 Stat. 1488 (November 16, 1993), codified at 42 U.S.C. § 2000bb through 42 U.S.C. § 2000bb-4 (also known as RFRA), is a 1993 United States federal law that "ensures that interests in religious freedom are protected

Where the "Equality Act" and RFRA collide - which one wins??

"Laycock, a longtime supporter of gay marriage and proponent of enacting a federal gay-rights law, explained that the Equality Act “regulates religious non-profits And then it says that [the Religious Freedom Restoration Act] does not apply to any claim under the Equality Act. This would be the first time Congress has limited the reach of RFRA. This is not a good-faith attempt to reconcile competing interests. It is an attempt by one side to grab all the disputed territory and to crush the other side.”
Equality Act -- Why it Is More Extreme Than the Bostock Decision | National Review

imge said:

Fulfilled does not mean the law is not longer required. Jesus made that point abdundentey clear.

Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

God bless

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Right, the law requires us to be perfect, just as perfect as God, because it is His law.

Leaf473 said:

Well, I mean that they probably didn't know that one day God's people would no longer sacrifice animals to get their sins forgiven. Maybe there's a Bible passage that talks about this, but I can't think of one at the moment.

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1. Jesus said Abraham saw his day and was glad - John 8
2. Peter says the OT prophets knew about "this salvation" that we have today seeing the "sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow" 1 Peter 1.
3. Paul says "the gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also" Hebrews 4:1-2
4. David even admits that the blood offerings of animals are not what God wants.
5. And Daniel is praying directly to God in Dan 9 from Babylon asking for forgiveness of sins - while offering no sin offering/animal sacrifice at all. No priest, no animal sacrifice, no temple. And nothing going on in Jerusalem either with the temple completely destroyed at that time.

So it is "very possible" that many of them did know that these animals were symbols of the future promise.

Leaf473 said:

They probably didn't know that the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself fulfills all the others

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Mark 12:28-33 The Jews tested Christ to see IF HE KNEW that the two great commandments upon which all others are based -- are

1. Love God with all your heart - Deut 6:4
2. Love your neighbor as yourself - Lev 19:18

the very thing you claim that non-Christian Jews before the cross could not have known - is the very test THEY put to Christ to see whether He was smart enough to know what they already knew!

Deut 6:4 and Lev 19:18 were not deleting scripture in the OT or in the NT.

They are establishing those laws you are talking about them setting aside - not deleting them - according to Christ.

Clare73 said:

The Levitical laws are removed (Heb 8:13; Eph 2:15; Col 2:14), and have been for almost 2,000 years now.

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No text in the Bible says that.

For example Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" - - even you might admit that this is not removed.