Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Clare73]

As for Jewish Christians - Acts 21 makes it clear as to what they were being told --

Irrelevant. . .Ac 21 has nothing to do with the letter to the Hebrews.

The letter to Hebrews makes clear what Hebrews were told therein, as in Heb 6:4-6.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It was actually a rhetorical question. That I answered with the statements below it.

The mark of the beast is not what day of the week you do(or don't do) something. This would fall under the third statement I made.

It's about worship. What is most valuable to God, worshipping Him. That's where it all started. Satan wanted to be a god and wanted to be Him. Satan has a counterfeit to everything. It's the spiritual war we are in every day. Who do we listen to? Who do we obey? God's commandments or commandments of man. We know who wins, pick eternal life. He tells us what we need to do. This is one of the last verses in the Bible. I do not think its there by accident.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Clare73]

Paul himself states that CHRIST is the one who gave the Law Heb 8:6-12.Heb 8:6-12.

You are confused. . .Heb 8:6-12 states no such thing.

Paul became all things to all men so that by all possible means he might save some.

The nature of the Sabbath rest in Heb 4:1-13 is spiritual, it is rest in Christ.
It is rest from our own work to save, and rest in Christ's work which saved us.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, set apart (sanctified) and given for rest (Ex 23:3; Dt 5:14) and worship (Lev 23:3; Is 66:23),
which is why we find the NT Christians assembling on the day of Christ's resurrection, the Lord's Day (Ac 20:7; 1Co 16:2; Rev 1:10) to worship.

Salvation is the Lord's! (Rev 7:10)
Paul, who received his revelation from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven (2Co 12:1-5), was emphatic about work NOT being
involved in justification/salvation, because in the third heaven he was given to understand why God was so emphatic about the
Sabbath-rest (Ex 31:14-15, 35:2-3; Nu 15:32-36; Jer 17:21-22, 27)--it was a prefigure/sign (as was most of the OT legislation)
of God's everlasting salvation rest in his Son Jesus Christ's atoning work on the cross.

And God is emphatic about salvation rest, prefigured in his OT Sabbath-rest, because
Salvation is the Lord's!. . .all the glory goes to him. . .we do not, and cannot, contribute anything by our work, we must rest
in his work in Jesus' atoning sacrifice.

That is the NT revelation of Heb 4:1-13--a spiritual Sabbath-rest in Jesus Christ for the people of God.

 

[Nathan@work]

It's about worship. What is most valuable to God, worshipping Him. That's where it all started. Satan wanted to be a god and wanted to be Him. Satan has a counterfeit to everything. It's the spiritual war we are in every day. Who do we listen to? Who do we obey? God's commandments or commandments of man. We know who wins, pick eternal life. He tells us what we need to do. This is one of the last verses in the Bible. I do not think its there by accident.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

You may see the following two things the same, but I believe they have two different meanings.

The most valuable thing to God is love, not worship.

We worship Him because we love Him. True worship is a result of true love.

However, He can be worshiped without love. Everything will one day bow down before Him - regardless if they love Him or not.

We "do" because we "love". That is across the board, people of Faith and those without.

You cannot obey His commandments if you do not love Him. It is impossible.

His children, who love Him, know His commandments and keep them. Period. Yes, just like my own children, His will disobey at times.

However, just like our own children(I assume you may have some?), they know what we tell them - they do not need a second-hand person telling them for us.

God's Spirit leads us in the ways of righteousness.

 

[Nathan@work]

So we agree that Paul became all things to all men so that by all possible means he might save some.

The nature of the Sabbath rest in Heb 4:1-13 is spiritual, it is rest in Christ.
It is rest from our own work to save, and rest in Christ's work which saved us.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, set apart (sanctified) and given for rest (Ex 23:3; Dt 5:14),
which is why we find the NT Christians assembling on the day of Christ's resurrection, the Lord's Day (Ac 20:7; 1Co 16:2; Rev 1:10).

Salvation is the Lord's! (Rev 7:10)
Paul, who received his revelation from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven (2Co 12:1-5), was emphatic about work NOT being
involved in justification/salvation, because in the third heaven he was given to understand why God was so emphatic about the
Sabbath-rest (Ex 31:14-15, 35:2-3; Nu 15:32-36; Jer 17:21-22, 27)--it was a prefigure/sign (as was most of the OT legislation)
of God's everlasting salvation rest in his Son Jesus Christ's atoning work on the cross.

And God is emphatic about salvation rest, prefigured in his OT Sabbath-rest, because
Salvation is the Lord's!. . .all the glory goes to him. . .we do not, and cannot, contribute anything by our work, we must rest
in his work in Jesus' atoning sacrifice.

That is the NT revelation of Heb 4:1-13--a spiritual Sabbath-rest in Jesus Christ for the people of God.

I would add, the nature of all God's commandments is Spiritual - they can only be Spiritually dicerned and obeyed.

1 Corinthians 2:11-16

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You may see the following two things the same, but I believe they have two different meanings.

The most valuable thing to God is love, not worship.

We worship Him because we love Him. True worship is a result of true love.

However, He can be worshiped without love. Everything will one day bow down before Him - regardless if they love Him or not.

We "do" because we "love". That is across the board, people of Faith and those without.

You cannot obey His commandments if you do not love Him. It is impossible.

His children, who love Him, know His commandments and keep them. Period. Yes, just like my own children, His will disobey at times.

However, just like our own children(I assume you may have some?), they know what we tell them - they do not need a second-hand person telling them for us.

God's Spirit leads us in the ways of righteousness.

It's like when you read the Bible, you read a quote it says one thing, but later there is another quote that says something different, It's hard to quote everything I believe in one post. Worship is how we show our love to God (obeying). We went away from God's true day of worship, He is calling us back. That is the point and where things are headed with the "universal church" that is being developed, to put aside our differences. That would be great if it was on the day God wants us to worship Him, but its not. In the end it will be clear through our actions who we worship. God asked for us to do something very specific. Exodus 20:8-11 He even used the word REMEMBER so we would know not to forget. When your partner asks you to do A, but you choose to do B, C & D while you are doing more than what was asked, are you really honoring your partners wishes? God is our Creator and Savior. We should be willing to do everything He asks of us. I think He asks so little in what He returns. God bless.

 

[Clare73]

I would add, the nature of all God's commandments is Spiritual - they can only be Spiritually dicerned and obeyed.

1 Corinthians 2:11-16

But weren't all the OT violations, as in in Ex 31:14-15, 35:2-3; Nu 15:32-36; Jer 17:21-22, 27, due to physical labor rather than spiritual labor, say prayer, giving alms, etc.?

 

[Clare73]

It's like when you read the Bible, you read a quote it says one thing, but later there is another quote that says something different, It's hard to quote everything I believe in one post. Worship is how we show our love to God (obeying). We went away from God's true day of worship, He is calling us back. That is the point and where things are headed with the "universal church" that is being developed, to put aside our differences. That would be great if it was on the day God wants us to worship Him, but its not. In the end it will be clear through our actions who we worship. God asked for us to do something very specific. Exodus 20:8-11 He even used the word REMEMBER so we would know not to forget. When your partner asks you to do A, but you choose to do B, C & D while you are doing more than what was asked, are you really honoring your partners wishes? God is our Creator and Savior. We should be willing to do everything He asks of us. I think He asks so little in what He returns. God bless.

Did God specify worship on the Sabbath, he specified only rest.

"Holy" means "to set apart," the Sabbath was to be set apart from all working days, but it was given for rest (Ex 23:3; Dt 5:14).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Did God specify worship on the Sabbath, he specified only rest.

Holy means "to set apart," the Sabbath was to be set apart from all working days, but it was given for rest.

Rest is only part of it. What does the very first verse tell you?

Exodus 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

[Clare73]

Rest is only part of it. What does the very first verse tell you?

Exodus 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I gave the Biblical meaning (both in the Hebrew and the Greek) of "holy"--to set apart. The Sabbath was to be set apart from the working days.

 

[BobRyan]

Hint there is no warning against: "return to Judaism" text in all of Hebrew.
In fact "return to Judaism" is not a phrase in all of the Bible.

Wouldn't that be the same as no "return to Gnosticism" text in all of the NT?

No Bible writer declares the Bible to be "Gnosticism" -- Jesus calls it "the Word of God" in Mark 7:6-13.

"Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God" in Mark 7 according to Christ.

I will stick with Christ on this Bible detail.

 

[Clare73]

No Bible writer declares the Bible to be "Gnosticism" -- Jesus calls it "the Word of God" in Mark 7:6-13.

Agreed. . .you're confused again. . .shooting down straw men.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I gave the Biblical meaning of "holy"--to set apart. The Sabbath was to set apart from the working days.

Holy means more than set apart. It's Sacred. We should do all our labor on days one - six as they are working days. Is a working day worthy of worship? Or the day God called Holy, Sacred, Hallow and set apart as His Sabbath the day He Sanctified and Blessed?

 

[BobRyan]

It seems to me a letter to Hebrews makes clear what Hebrews are being told, as in Heb 6:4-6.

Hebrews is for all Christians - it is in our Bible - and it says nothing at all by way of "warning against a return to Judaism" -- instead it warns against being "stuck" at the level of "basic" Christian doctrine.. stuck at the "basics" (Heb 5-6:3) and not going on to the more mature topics of the Sanctuary, Christ as High Priest etc that we see in Heb 7,8,9,10.

Acts 21 is the place where we see Jewish Christians concerned about whether Paul is teaching converted Jews to maintain their belief in what scripture was telling Jews to do.. a post you seem to want to avoid at the moment. Not sure why that would not be of interest since you are bringing that subject up.

 

[Nathan@work]

It's like when you read the Bible, you read a quote it says one thing, but later there is another quote that says something different, It's hard to quote everything I believe in one post. Worship is how we show our love to God (obeying). We went away from God's true day of worship, He is calling us back. That is the point and where things are headed with the "universal church" that is being developed, to put aside our differences. That would be great if it was on the day God wants us to worship Him, but its not. In the end it will be clear through our actions who we worship. God asked for us to do something very specific. Exodus 20:8-11 He even used the word REMEMBER so we would know not to forget. When your partner asks you to do A, but you choose to do B, C & D while you are doing more than what was asked, are you really honoring your partners wishes? God is our Creator and Savior. We should be willing to do everything He asks of us. I think He asks so little in what He returns. God bless.

God created the earth in seven days. It does not say day one was Sunday, and day seven was Saturday.

There is a reason for that.

When we focus on the day, rather than the Creator of it - and the reason for the day - our worship is not toward God.

The same holds true to all of the laws. That is why the rich young ruler went away sorrowful. He just could not get past the love he had for the law, when in fact his love should have been for the Giver of the law.

If his love would have been toward the Giver of the law, then what Jesus told him to do would not have been an issue. However, he had loved the laws instead, and because there was not a law like the one Jesus told him to do - the young man couldn't bring himself to obey.

Jesus is calling you to put aside your possessions. Give away those things you hold to, that are not found in the written law, that have a hold on you. Follow Him. He will not lead you astray.

The Spirit will never lead a person to disobey God.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul became all things to all men so that by all possible means, he might save some.

"To the Jews, I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though
I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law,but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

To the weak, I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." (1Co 9:19-23)

Which only further proves that there was no such thing as "Judaism is a rejection of Christ" ... Paul did not say "I opposed Christ so that might win those that oppose Christ" or "I sinned that I might win sinners"

Rather he demonstrates the extent to which Judaism in fact does NOT oppose Christ.

Nevertheless, Paul was very careful not to sacrifice Christian principle in any act of obedience to the law.

Since that would be impossible and Paul himself states that CHRIST is the one who gave the Law Heb 8:6-12.

================================

So we agree that Paul became all things to all men so that by all possible means he might save some.

Indeed we do. He did that in the confines/limits of what is perfectly valid inside the scope of the Gospel - the Word of God as we see it in both OT and NT.

The nature of the Sabbath rest in Heb 4:1-13 is spiritual, it is rest in Christ.
It is rest from our own work to save, and rest in Christ's work which saved us.

Matt 11 - under the full force of the TEN Commandments "Come unto Me and I will give you rest".

Heb 4 - points back to the time of David which is under the full force of the TEN Commandments - and say that it is only SOME of them that at that time - did not enter into that rest.

The Sabbath was not deleted in Matt 11, and was not deleted in the time of David by the fact that only "some" of them had not entered into rest.

I think we have discussed this point.

Sabbath-rest (Ex 31:14-15, 35:2-3; Nu 15:32-36; Jer 17:21-22, 27)--it was a prefigure/sign

Not according to Is 66:23 where for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

Not according to Ex 20:8-11
Not according to Gen 2:1-3
Not according to Ex 31:14-15, 35:2-3; Nu 15:32-36; Jer 17:21-22, 27 -- where at no time does the text point to a future fulfillment of the Sabbath commandment.

In John 3 - Christ said a person "must be born again" to enter the kingdom of heaven - using physical birth as a symbol "end all physical birth" not even for Christians that were born-again.

Bible details matter...

 

[BobRyan]

I gave the Biblical meaning (both in the Hebrew and the Greek) of "holy"--to set apart. The Sabbath was to be set apart from the working days.

True - Sabbath was set apart from the 6 working days.
And the symbol of birth in John 3 used for the new birth -- did not delete birth... not even from Christians.

 

[Nathan@work]

But weren't all the OT violations, as in in Ex 31:14-15, 35:2-3; Nu 15:32-36; Jer 17:21-22, 27, due to physical labor rather than spiritual labor, say prayer, giving alms, etc.?

Yes, all of the laws have a physical identity. It is only in that way that the unregenerate man can know that he is against them.

The truth(meaning) of the laws are all Spiritual, and can only be Spiritually discerned.

 

[BobRyan]

It's like when you read the Bible, you read a quote it says one thing, but later there is another quote that says something different, It's hard to quote everything I believe in one post. Worship is how we show our love to God (obeying).

Did God specify worship on the Sabbath

Yes - Lev 23:3 a day of holy convocation
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before me to bow down" - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

How nice that scholars in almost all of the main Christian denominations on planet Earth agree with this Bible detail.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God created the earth in seven days. It does not say day one was Sunday, and day seven was Saturday.

There is a reason for that.

When we focus on the day, rather than the Creator of it - and the reason for the day - our worship is not toward God.

The same holds true to all of the laws. That is why the rich young ruler went away sorrowful. He just could not get past the love he had for the law, when in fact his love should have been for the Giver of the law.

If his love would have been toward the Giver of the law, then what Jesus told him to do would not have been an issue. However, he had loved the laws instead, and because there was not a law like the one Jesus told him to do - the young man couldn't bring himself to obey.

Jesus is calling you to put aside your possessions. Give away those things you hold to, that are not found in the written law, that have a hold on you. Follow Him. He will not lead you astray.

The Spirit will never lead a person to disobey God.

Did Jesus rise on the first day? Easter Sunday. Isn't that the reason everyone quotes going to church on Sunday rather than Saturday, the seventh day Sabbath. The Bible was translated from Hebrew, Greek and Arabic, Saturday is Sabbath. Did all the Jews on this planet disappear and now know one knows which day of the week it is? My philosophy is you can give a 101 reasons why you don't obey, or you obey. God gives us free will, the scripture is Truth. It's up to each of us what we wish to do with it. God bless.