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Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

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SkyWriting

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imge said:
If there was no law we would not need grace. We do not obey to be saved, we obey because we are saved.
Click to expand...

And I don't think you heard anyone saying we should ignore any laws in the first place.
 
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The Liturgist

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Indeed, but one can use it to question SDA interpretations of those commandments.
 
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The Liturgist

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The Liturgist

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Clare73 said:
Very informative, thanks.

What does the "esoteric" interpretation mean?
Click to expand...

It’s like the Parables Jesus used, where there is a story, the exoteric text, and then a spiritual meaning within, which is esoteric.
 
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Cis.jd

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Do we still need to sacrifice lambs?
 
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Clare73

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Yes, the context of the second warning given in Heb 4:1-13 is the entire book of Hebrews.
Hint there is no "return to Judaism" text in all of Hebrew.
Click to expand...
It's like in other NT letters; e.g., where "Gnosticism" is not specifically mentioned in the letter but content and history inform of its context.
Yes, when it didn't violate his allegiance to Christ, Paul became all things to all men so that by all possible means, he might save some.

"To the Jews, I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though
I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law,
but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

To the weak, I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." (1Co 9:19-23)

Nevertheless, Paul was very careful not to sacrifice Christian principle in any act of obedience to the law. While he had Timothy circumcised so that his work among the Jews would be more effective, he would not have Titus circumcised (Gal 2:3) because in Galatia there were false brothers demanding that it was necessary for salvation (Gal 2:4).
No such debate of that form appears at all in the entire book of Hebrews.
Click to expand...
Nor does any debate appear in Romans, or Ephesians, or Philippians, or. . .

And it's not a debate, it's a letter (possibly from Paul) warning whatever group of Jewish converts it was, maybe the large number of priests who became obedient to the faith (Ac 6:7), or maybe some were thinking of merging with a Jewish sect, such as the one at Qumran near the Dead Sea.

The topic of Hebrews, a presentation of the absolute supremacy and sufficiency of Christ as revealer and as mediator of God's grace, to dissuade any from leaving the gospel, is interrupted with five warnings regarding paying attention and not falling away (2:1-4, 3:7-4:13, 5:11-6:12, 10:19-39, 12:14-29.
Heb 4:1-13, the context of my post, is the second of those warnings.
In reality. But we can see it in Acts 21 for those who want to see the primary text on that topic.
Click to expand...
Primary text does not mean only text on the topic.
]Hebrews 6 does not say one single thing about the supposed danger of being a Jew or of believing the OT is still scripture even for Christians.
Click to expand...
If you're referring to 6:4-6, it says much about falling away from Christ and being hardened beyond repentance, as are those in Ro 11:25, because departing is to crucify the Son of God all over again and subject him to public shame. (Heb 6:5-6)
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Click to expand...
I can't imagine a better description of apostasy than that. And that was the concern of the writer of Hebrews,
The nature of the rest is spiritual, it is rest in Christ.
It is rest from our own work to save, and rest in Christ's work which saved us.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, set apart (sanctified) and given for rest (Ex 23:3; Dt 5:14),
which is why we find the NT Christians assembling on the day of Christ's resurrection, the Lord's Day (Ac 20:7; 1Co 16:2; Rev 1:10).
 
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misput

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The law is perfect, man is not, consequently we must look to God/Christ for salvation. Not the Law and not ourselves. This is true from Adam to now.
 
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fhansen

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misput said:
The law is perfect, man is not, consequently we must look to God/Christ for salvation. Not the Law and not ourselves. This is true from Adam to now.
Click to expand...
And yet it's been held by many theologians that,
1) God didn't create man to sin, and
2) He wouldn't command anything that man could not do.

The lesson to be learned isn't that we can't possibly fulfill the law/be obedient, but rather that we can't fulfill the law/be obedient apart from God, apart from love of God to be more precise, perhaps. Man was made for communion with God and exists in an unjust or disordered state: lost, sick, dead without that relationship.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

I appreciate the words of Basil of Caesarea here, a 4th century believer:
If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.
 
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Freth

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Since Paul seems to be a point of contention, let's skip Paul altogether and go to the last book of the Bible, the book of Revelation.

Some points of interest about the book of Revelation:
  • It is the newest book of the Bible, written by John circa 81-96 AD.
  • It proclaims itself to be the revelation of Jesus Christ, given to Jesus by God and then sent and signified by Jesus through an angel to John of Patmos.
    • signified: to give a sign, to signify, indicate, to make known, a mark.
  • In it, Jesus repeatedly asserts His authority as the Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the root of David.
  • It is a message of sobering urgency, not only to the churches, but to the world.
  • Its fulfilled prophecies put us at the very end of time, just before the second coming.
The book of Revelation opens with John seeing Jesus in the holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, standing before the seven candlesticks (which represent the seven churches) and having seven stars in His right hand (which represent the angels of the seven churches).

The seven churches were seven that existed in John's day. Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. These seven churches were also types of churches spanning the time between John's day and the second coming. The last of these churches, the church of Laodicea, being the church of the end time.

In the letters to the churches, Jesus gave commendations to six of the seven. The seventh, Laodicea, did not receive a commendation. This is a clear indicator that something is seriously wrong with the church of the end time.

In His letter to the church of Laodicea, Jesus says that the church is neither hot nor cold and that He would rather it be one or the other and not lukewarm. He goes on to say that they are spiritually poor, blind and naked, then warns that He will spue the church out of His mouth. Utter rejection.

This raises an important question. How does one effectively define lukewarm Christianity? That's a multi-faceted answer. Jesus didn't accuse the other six churches of being lukewarm, but they were guilty of leaving their first love, tolerating and/or participating in compromise, immorality, idolatry, as well as dead works.

The fact that the church of Laodicea received no commendation shows that they are most likely guilty of all of the shortcomings of the first six churches and being lukewarm. The lack of anything good for Jesus to say about the church of Laodicea is a scathing rebuke. Spiritually poor, blind(!) and naked.

Of the counsel Jesus gave to the seven churches, one word is repeated six times. Repent. The reason there weren't seven calls to repent is because the church of Philadelphia did not receive a rebuke. Instead, Jesus simple said to hold fast to faith.

It should be noted: At the beginning of each letter to the churches, Jesus says, "I know thy works.", which points to good and bad works.

What qualities did Jesus see in the church of Philadelphia that found it guiltless?

Revelation 3:7-13
  • Kept the word of His patience.
  • Has not denied Jesus name (faith).
Here's the kicker:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now let's look at the last words Jesus gave to John and give some exposition.

The time of the end began with the crucifixion. The letters to the churches attest to the relevance in John's time. The prophecies of Revelation that have come to pass since John's time attest to the relevance of Revelation until the second coming. In Revelation 22, the angel tells John not to seal up the book, because the time is at hand.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
​
The time of judgment is almost over and probation is soon to close. The next verse points to this fact by telling us that there will be a time when it will be too late to change course.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Remember how Jesus said, "I know thy works", and how it points to good and bad works? Jesus reiterates this fact with urgency.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

Jesus asserts His authority, for emphasis.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

Jesus makes a clear conditional statement tying commandment keeping with eternal life and access to the city.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
​
And the clincher. Jesus then points directly to the Ten Commandments.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Jesus reasserts His authority and reiterates His appeal to the churches.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
​
Jesus signified His revelation to John (Revelation 1:1). Jesus signified the seventh day Sabbath (Exodus 31:13-17) as the Seal of God (Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Revelation 14:6-12). Jesus signified the Ten Commandments as the commandments to keep. This in no way negates Love God, Love Others; on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
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SkyWriting

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Neogaia777

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Look, I am not against the commandments, "any of them", in their right context, etc...

And in fact, I work very hard at trying to find the way to "truly", and please notice I said "truly", etc, truly truly obey and keep them, etc, and keep and obey them all perfectly and all of the time if I can, etc, and I will never give up on that search, etc...

I know Love is the way, etc, the true way, etc, and without Love none of it ever works, or means anything, cause it's not really ever true or genuine to begin with, etc, and I also know it not primarily through my own will only, or only what I "force myself to strenuously obey and/or do only" either, etc, so I am continuing my search, etc...

Then also, if you know anything at all about "true justice" at all, etc, or truly obeying and doing what is always truly righteous always at all, etc, you know that no letter of any kind of any kind of law, the written down letter or form of it, etc, is ever an "absolute" always and in every single case always, etc...

Now the letter of a law, or in this case, "the law", etc, or "laws", etc, or God's written down commandments, etc, as an example, "The Ten, etc, these are not always absolutes always either, and there are even times, even in the OT, where people actually clearly disobeyed them, but were considered very much extremely righteous still by God, mainly for actually finding that "exception to then normal rules", etc, and then credited for being wise and cunning enough to know the difference, etc...

The letter of the laws, like the ten commandments, etc, are useful in teaching us the very basics between "good and evil", etc, but isn't that the exact tree we were told specifically not to ever eat from ever, etc...?

You don't need, or shouldn't need, rules, or a written down set rules of certain laws or codes, for which an endless, and I do mean, "endless", etc, set of other rules or laws need to be endlessly added to it, etc, over time, etc, anyway, let's just say it "fails", etc, OK, and we were told not to ever eat from it, etc, and you shouldn't need a written down set of rules of laws depicting (endlessly over enough time, etc) what is the difference between (in time "all") all of what is all good, or else all evil, etc, or specific right and wrong, etc, BECAUSE, etc, because these things, along with all their "exceptions" from which true righteousness and true justice comes, etc, can be much more fully, and much more truly and more accurately known only from "within", etc, by a righteousness that will always exceed that of the, or any set of fully written down set of rules of laws or codes always, etc...

We know what is right or else wrong already, etc, and that was part of the original lie and deception in the Garden, etc, that "they didn't" "already know" "that" already, etc... This is why the "law that was always from the beginning", etc, can only ever fully truly be known, or only ever fully truly expressed, from what is already known, etc, or can be expressed, etc, only from what is already known within, etc, in your hearts, etc, if your hearts are good and truly holy/born again already, etc...

And that is part of the problem right there, the world greatly confuses this, and we have a lot of people with either very, very corrupt, and just have very bad and evil or wicked hearts, or else, if not that exactly, just really, really confused hearts already, etc, and for this reason many people stumble and look to the letter of laws for guidance and help, etc, but don't let it deceive you into believing that it, number one, actually makes you more righteous, etc, cause it is actually the opposite, etc, actually makes you less righteous, etc, or that it makes you know any "more" than you already have or already know or have from within already, etc, or that God is keeping something from you that you didn't already have already "in full" already, etc, cause that was the original lie of Satan the Devil, etc, and was the number one main cause of the fall, that lie, etc, and was the number one original deception of the serpent, that became Satan the Devil later on, in the Garden, etc...

"God is keeping the knowledge of good and evil from you", etc... "Liar", etc... They already knew it, and already knew it (all) better than they ever would or ever could already, etc... "Liar, Liar, pants on fire", etc, etc, etc...

The introduction of the letter of the law actually only made it much more worse, etc...

But it also had to come when it came, etc...

Anyway, I will try to provide scripture later, as there is "plenty", etc, but I'm just going to say this much for now, etc, OK...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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So to summarize for now, the original deception and lie of the enemy, Satan the Devil, was that by knowing these "letter of the law rules and written down on stone or paper parchment treated like stone, etc, specific rules or laws or specific codes of conduct", etc, that you would actually become "much, much more truly righteous than you were before", etc, when "nothing could ever be further from the real true truth", etc, but and/or because, the commandments that they already had from the very beginning already, and that they already knew and full knowledge of from within already, already, etc, in their hearts already, etc, were actually the ones that were actually already "way, way more truly righteous already", etc...

Already having a righteousness that already "far exceeded that of the letter of the law", etc, but just did not fully realize it or know it, etc...

Anyway...

Try to get you scripture later... There is "plenty"...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Romans 7, the whole chapter, etc...

2 Corinthians 3, the whole chapter...

Galatians 2:16-21...

Galatians 3, the whole chapter...

And pretty much the rest of Galatians, etc...



Galatians 4:21- "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?"

Acts of the Apostles 7:53- "who have received the law by the direction of angels but have not kept it."

James 2:10- "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it."

Galatians 3:10- "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Galatians 3:19- "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary."

Colossians 2:14- "By canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross."

Ephesians 2:15- "By abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace"

Galatians 2:16- "Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

Hebrews 7:12- "For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well."

Galatians 3:24- "So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith."

Romans 10:4- "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Romans 4:15- "For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression."

Romans 3:20- "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

Romans 3:19- "Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God."

Galatians 3:13- "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"

Galatians 3:1-29- O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith...?"

2 Corinthians 3:6- "Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Romans 8:2- "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death."

John 7:19- "Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?”

Hebrews 7:16- "Who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life."

Romans 7:6- "But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code."

Jeremiah 31:31-34- "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Hebrews 8:13- "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Hebrews 8:6- "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises."

Hebrews 7:18- "For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness."

Hebrews 7:19- "(for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God."

Colossians 2:17- "These are only a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."



Going to stop there for now, but feel very free to look all of these up if you wish, and their surrounding verses and full context, etc...

And these are mainly just the ones only about the OT letter of the law covenant, etc, and that was only just one of my points, etc, and said nothing about "what all else I said", etc, but if you really want me to, I will post the verses for those as well, if there is enough room or space on here for all of them, etc, if you really want me to, etc...?

Anyway, I think that is quite enough for now...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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In-Christ-Alone said:
the keeping of the "law" saves NO ONE! It is ONLY by true "REPENTANCE and FAITH" (Mark 1:15), in the Lord Jesus Christ, that can actually save any sinner!
Click to expand...
Luke 15:7- "“I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance."

This was directed specifically at people by Jesus who thought they were righteous in and of their own selves, and most especially by their own self will and efforts in obedience to the letter of the law OT law covenant, or commandments, etc...

God Bless!
 
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In-Christ-Alone

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Who says that these words of Jesus are only for some select group? What about

Luke 13:3, 5, "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish"
Luke 24:47, "and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem"
Acts 2:38, "And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Acts 3:19, "Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out"
Acts 17:30, "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent"
Acts 20:21, "testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ"

These verses are for every single human being!
 
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Neogaia777

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Oh, you are very correct, and I am with you all the way, repentance is for everyone most absolutely, etc, but I was just giving you only the context, targeted audience, or who Jesus was only speaking to at that specific moment only, in only that specific verse I quoted only, etc, but repentance is most definitely always for all, and everybody always most definitely, etc...

I hate not giving people some context when only quoting only one or two verses only, etc, feels almost "dishonest" somehow sometimes, sometimes, etc...

But, I recently did a post specifically about that actually, repentance and repenting, etc, and pushing or trying to drive that specific point home for all actually, myself included, etc, but it was a little while back, but if you want me to, I can see if I can find it for you if you really want me to maybe, etc...?

Peace,

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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@In-Christ-Alone

I actually found it, well part of it only maybe actually, but maybe enough of it for you to get a general idea of how important I think repentance is maybe, individually and "for all" maybe, etc...

It's these two posts mainly #535, and #536 right after it, etc...

I'm only going to give #535 though, as the other is just right after it, etc...

Does God love all or some?

God Bless!
 
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