Remove the stigma!

[Archivist]

I did not make a claim that any one not Catholic is ignorant. You are putting words in my mouth. I was replying to a Catholic person so I made a comment to her about our faith.

I appologize. The denomination of the person to whom you were replying does not show up in the reply.

My remark about being ignorant is for all the people out there that think a fetus is nothing more the extra tissue of their body. It is not their body...

Actually I don't know of many who claim that a fetus is "extra tissue of their body." It is, however, inside of their body. It certainly is not "ignorant" for a person to believe that they should have control over their body, including the possibility of aborting a fetus that was a result of rape or incest.

We know that a fetus is seperate from the mother and is a different human creature althogether based on scientific definitions and Christian beliefs. That the fetus lives in the mother for protection and nurishment. In reality the question is "why isn't the baby considered a person until it leaves the womb"?

You have, I presume, taken the time to read the Roe decision. The woman is a life in being. Her interests are, therefore, paramount.

 

[Trashionista]

I would think it is more important to be concerned about what God thinks of you than what others think of you???

Wouldn't you agree?

You're right, I don't particularly care what others think of my viewpoints.

TBH, I don't imagine more conservative Catholics, and more conservative people in general would be that impressed with my views on Larry Flynt, homosexuality, art, etc. I've always known that. However, its the beauty of free-will - to be able to disagree & discuss.

There is also from that the beauty of free-speech. A person has every right to say they disagree with abortion - I could care less whether a pro-Lifer gets up on a pulpit and screams out their views. However, I do think its wrong to suggest that people are doing something wrong if they decide to go down the abortion route.

If you believe that God should be the only who has the right to judge, then leave it up to that. Believe those who have abortions will receive their come-uppance if thats your view. But don't force a pro-life view on society because the Church says abortion is wrong.

As well, I feel no shame in my viewpoints on various issues. As for the Catholicism vs. My Mores argument, I've addressed that previously here and in previous threads. So, I don't feel the need to address that for the 100th time.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

You're right, I don't particularly care what others think of my viewpoints.

I noticed you did not answer if God's viewpoint is more important than yours...

Do not respond if you wish. I thought a PM would be best so as not to use this thread for a discussion between two Catholics.

May God watch over you sister.

Shalom

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Actually I don't know of many who claim that a fetus is "extra tissue of their body." It is, however, inside of their body. It certainly is not "ignorant" for a person to believe that they should have control over their body, including the possibility of aborting a fetus that was a result of rape or incest.

I believe that most people consider a fetus as a growing tissue inside the woman with no life of it's own. I think a lot of people do not believe the baby has a life until it exits the womb.

I think this way because up until three years ago I was very pro-choice. I had many debates arguing for pro-choice. I was also a huge Kerry for president debator.

Point is, I know both sides of the track. It was in an argument with my wife over Catholic teaching that I was determined to prove her wrong that I studied scripture and the catechism that I found personal revelation on this topic. I was wrong. DEAD WRONG.

I found not only evidence with scripture that abortion is murder but with science as well. I have also been confounded at our legal system and it's hyprocracy. Meaning, we have abortion as a legal killing of a life. We know the legal system sees the unborn child as a life because in murder cases of a pregnant woman the legal system treats it as a double homocide.

So, the legal system does not give this baby any human rights, except through it's mother, until the baby is out of the womb. So, our legal system does not give the child any of the rights of the Constitution until it is out of the womb.

Maybe our system sees the mother's womb as a place different than of this country much like an alien from another country and thus affords it no rights???

You have, I presume, taken the time to read the Roe decision. The woman is a life in being. Her interests are, therefore, paramount.

I have read some of Wade vs Roe and mostly in times past to support Pro-Choice. My concerns are not with the legalities of abortion in regards to man's law as it is my concern for our eternal souls in regards to GOD's laws.

Not to mention the murder of more than 4,000 little souls a day.

 

[Trashionista]

I noticed you did not answer if God's viewpoint is more important than yours...

Do not respond if you wish. I thought a PM would be best so as not to use this thread for a discussion between two Catholics.

May God watch over you sister.

Shalom

I thought I did...?

Ok. Its up to God to judge - that is my view. I see no issue with my beliefs/value system, and I don't believe anyone else should either.

 

[Atlantians]

I thought I did...?

Ok. Its up to God to judge - that is my view. I see no issue with my beliefs/value system, and I don't believe anyone else should either.

So, becaues you believe you are right, no one should voice a contrary oppinion?

 

[Trashionista]

So, becaues you believe you are right, no one should voice a contrary oppinion?

There's a difference between voicing an opinion, and suggesting what others should do with their own bodies.

You can be against Hustler & Larry Flynt, but no-one should have the right to tell someone else not to buy that magazine.

I'd argue it applies to abortion as well. You can personally be against abortion all you want. Heck, donate all your extra earnings to Right to Life. Get on a pulpit and scream it out to anyone who'll listen.

But to say other women who choose to abort their fetuses are doing something "wrong"? It crosses the line. Its fine to be against something, but suggesting other people follow your [gen.] own values system is wrong.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

There's a difference between voicing an opinion, and suggesting what others should do with their own bodies.

Who is questioning what a woman does with her own body? It is a question about what she does with another person's body inside of her.

When Mary had the Holy Spirit over shadow her and bless her with Jesus it was not her body inside of her. It was Jesus from the moment of conception. When Mary visited Elizabeth who was six months pregnant with John, it was not her body that lept for joy but John as a baby in her womb.

See?

 

[Trashionista]

Who is questioning what a woman does with her own body? It is a question about what she does with another person's body inside of her.

And that's if you feel that the fetus is actually a baby.

The mother's reproductive rights in the eyes of the law usurp that of the fetus. If a woman chooses to have an abortion, you can find it a disgusting, immoral act of murder all you want.

However, its not your reproductive organs, your uterus, etc. The fetus is dependant on her body. If she chooses to abort that fetus, she should have the right to do that.

Again, you can be against it. But to force that moral code upon society's law-makers would be unfair.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

And that's if you feel that the fetus is actually a baby.

Quirk... it has nothing to do with how I feel.

What I said about Jesus and John is scriptural and not my feelings.

The fetus being a life that is seperate from the mother is scientific.

That a baby in the mother's womb can be considered the second homocide in a homocide case of a pregnant mother shows societie's claim that the fetus is a unique human being.

Quirk if there is someone basing their decisions on 'feelings' I suspect that would be you sister.

 

[Trashionista]

Quirk... it has nothing to do with how I feel.

What I said about Jesus and John is scriptural and not my feelings.

The fetus being a life that is seperate from the mother is scientific.

That a baby in the mother's womb can be considered the second homocide in a homocide case of a pregnant mother shows societie's claim that the fetus is a unique human being.

Quirk if there is someone basing their decisions on 'feelings' I suspect that would be you sister.

Its based as much on feeling as it is science.

Its also based on the fact that I feel another woman has every right to do what she wants with her body.

So, yeah, it is based on feelings.

How is the belief that the fetus is a baby not also based on feelings? Even its from a religious POV, you must feel the Church to be correct in their assessment of life. Or feel that the fetus is a womb has a soul. Or feel that a woman is making a horrible decision when she goes to get an abortion.

So, its all based on feeling - whether you're for the pro-choice or pro-life side. Everything is based on feelings to some extent. You have to feel something is immoral or moral; right or wrong; murder of a baby or removal of a fetus.

So, to say my opinions are the only ones based on feelings is wrong. I wouldn't say going on feelings is particularly bad in all cases either.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Quirk you are so young and inexperienced. I forget sometimes how I knew it all at your age.

If you ever become pregnant I am sure your views will change dramatically. I trust in that.

Enjoy being young and so confident in what you know.

Peace little sister,

Jack

 

[Calliso]

Quirk you are so young and inexperienced. I forget sometimes how I knew it all at your age.

If you ever become pregnant I am sure your views will change dramatically. I trust in that.

Enjoy being young and so confident in what you know.

Peace little sister,

Jack

Err no offense but I donlt think she thinks she knows it all. Also maybe her views would change and maybe they wouldn;t you donlt know if they would or not. Not to mention the young and inexperienced line sounds more like you donlt really have an argument so your resulting to making comments like that....

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Err no offense but I donlt think she thinks she knows it all. Also maybe her views would change and maybe they wouldn;t you donlt know if they would or not. Not to mention the young and inexperienced line sounds more like you donlt really have an argument so your resulting to making comments like that....

Thanks. I am sure Quirk will appreciate you standing up for her. But you do not need to.

By the way I cannot see someone that is 23 having all that much experince at life either. At least not based on what I know today. You are 5 years as an adult and maybe even supporting yourself that long. But come back 20 years from now when you have had to raise a family and be married and all that goes with that.

My point is that you can speak about something better when you have the experience. Having had a child and raised her/him we learn alot about life and things like abortion can become something altogether different then when we were young and still a child ourselves.

 

[LunarPlexus]

Thanks. I am sure Quirk will appreciate you standing up for her. But you do not need to.

By the way I cannot see someone that is 23 having all that much experince at life either. At least not based on what I know today. You are 5 years as an adult and maybe even supporting yourself that long. But come back 20 years from now when you have had to raise a family and be married and all that goes with that.

My point is that you can speak about something better when you have the experience. Having had a child and raised her/him we learn alot about life and things like abortion can become something altogether different then when we were young and still a child ourselves.

Sure, viewpoints tend to change with experience...that's no reason to disregard the current viewpoint, or patronize it.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Sure, viewpoints tend to change with experience...that's no reason to disregard the current viewpoint, or patronize it.

Actually, if I had disregarded it I would never have responded to it in the first place.

And if I were patronizing it I would have used a far different tone and language. Instead I started with a tone and language that I use with my peers. Eventually I had to submit to the fact that our conversation could be no different (or very similiar to) conversations I have with my 17 year old daughter.

But I do not expect a teenager to understand much of what I have discussed.

Peace to you.

 

[LunarPlexus]

Actually, if I had disregarded it I would never have responded to it in the first place.

And if I were patronizing it I would have used a far different tone and language. Instead I started with a tone and language that I use with my peers. Eventually I had to submit to the fact that our conversation could be no different (or very similiar to) conversations I have with my 17 year old daughter.

But I do not expect a teenager to understand much of what I have discussed.

Peace to you.

I shouldn't have been so quick to get my hackles up. I apologize.

Don't underestimate the capability of a teenager to understand ANYTHING.

 

[Archivist]

I believe that most people consider a fetus as a growing tissue inside the woman with no life of it's own. I think a lot of people do not believe the baby has a life until it exits the womb.

Actually the pols say otherw sie. For example a 2003 Newsweek poll of 4000 people got the following result to the question "when does life begin:"

Fertilized egg 46 %
Embryo 12%
Viable 12%
At birth 24%
Don't Know 7%

I think this way because up until three years ago I was very pro-choice. I had many debates arguing for pro-choice. I was also a huge Kerry for president debator.

OK

Point is, I know both sides of the track. It was in an argument with my wife over Catholic teaching that I was determined to prove her wrong that I studied scripture and the catechism that I found personal revelation on this topic. I was wrong. DEAD WRONG.

You are entitled to your opinion that you were wrong. Others who have studied scripture, like myself, have reached dirrering conclusions.

And not only evidence with scripture that abortion is murder but with science as well.

There is disagreement as to what both scripture and science say on the issue of abortion.

I have also been confounded at our legal system and it's hyprocracy. Meaning, we have abortion as a legal killing of a life. We know the legal system sees the unborn child as a life because in murder cases of a pregnant woman the legal system treats it as a double homocide.

The Roe decision does not say that a fetus is not a life. It creates a balancing test. That is why I asked whether you had ever read the Roe decison. In Roe the Court held that during the first trimester the pregnant woman's rights superceed those of the fetus, and she may have unrestricted access to an abortion. During the second trimester the state can impose limited restrictions except in cases or rape or incest or when the woman's life is in danger. During the third trimester the state can prohibit abortion except in cases or rape or incest or when the woman's life is in danger.

There is no hyprocracy in the legal system on thsi issue, because there is a difference between a woman who chooses to control her own body and a third party who chooses to kill the woman and the fetus.

So, the legal system does not give this baby any human rights, except through it's mother, until the baby is out of the womb.

No, as I have written above, the legal system does give some legal protection to the fetus.

So, our legal system does not give the child any of the rights of the Constitution until it is out of the womb.

Wrong. Citizenship begins at birth (14th Amendment). As I have already said, that does not mean that a fetus has no rights.

Maybe our system sees the mother's womb as a place different than of this country much like an alien from another country and thus affords it no rights???

No, actually aliens, even those who are here illegally, still have rights.

I have read some of Wade vs Roe and mostly in times past to support Pro-Choice.

Perhaps you need to read the entire decision, because you clearly do not understand it.

My concerns are not with the legalities of abortion in regards to man's law as it is my concern for our eternal souls in regards to GOD's laws.

And as I said, other people read scripture and come to differing conclusions.

Not to mention the murder of more than 4,000 little souls a day.

But this thread is only dealing with abortions in the cases of rape and incest, which accounts for only a small number of abortions.

 

[Archivist]

By the way I cannot see someone that is 23 having all that much experince at life either. At least not based on what I know today. You are 5 years as an adult and maybe even supporting yourself that long. But come back 20 years from now when you have had to raise a family and be married and all that goes with that.

My point is that you can speak about something better when you have the experience. Having had a child and raised her/him we learn alot about life and things like abortion can become something altogether different then when we were young and still a child ourselves.

It might not be a matter of age or experience. Perhaps the fact that she is a woman gives her more of an insight into thsi topic that you will ever have.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

It might not be a matter of age or experience. Perhaps the fact that she is a woman gives her more of an insight into thsi topic that you will ever have.

With some of your responses it seems as though you prefer to find an argument anyway you can...

That is all I have left to say to you for now archivist.