Remove the stigma!

[JacktheCatholic]

We are talking about a woman who has already been victimized once...


I'm looking at the male symbol next to your name. I think that most women would tell you that pregnancy is much more than "discomfort and a little pain." This is far more than that--you are calling for a woman to be forced to bear the mental angusih of carrying her attacker's spawn to term. In addition, remember that women still die in childbirth. Shouldn't she have the right to an abortion simply as a matter of self-defense.

Since you want to force women who have been raped to carry the child to term against their will, are you willing to go on record as being resposible for the following (after all if you want to deny them their choice, certainly you should be willing to do this):

Reimbuse the woman for any lost wages, including paying for all sick days;

Reimburse the woman for any uncovered medical expenses;

Reimburse the woman for any post-delivery weight loss programs, laser treatment for stretch marks, breast lifts and any other treatment to restore her body to its pre-pregnancy condition;

Reimburse the woman for any needed psychiatric care;

Reimburse the woman for any and all other expenses dealing with the pregnancy.

First, she would not be carrying anyones sperm to term. It is a unique individual that only shares the dna of the mother and father. The baby is innocent of any crime and that must always be part of your math.

As for a woman who is trying to bring her baby in the world but the doctor says she has a chance of dying then in these cases we can examine them with the understanding of self defence and in cases of a mother protecting her life I can accept the killing of her baby.

Also, I do not believe in "forcing" any one to do anything. But freedom does not mean we can commit whatever sins we want. I believe we are a country that is a God fearing country and we should have leaders that allow people to live a life for God and not restrict them. I believe we pay taxes so our leaders can be good Chrisitans and help the poor and weak. That for a woman who will bring another soul into the world and she cannot keep that child because of the father then our leaders should offer something for these people. Not only do I believe this but the Catholic Church teaches similiar.

As to me being a male respondent concerning a woman carrying a baby to term. I can only answer as you, based on what I have been told and read. But I stand by the fact that a human life cannot be exchanged for the removal of discomfort and pain for 6 months or so.

I can also say that with all three of my kids the mother did not have a lot pain and doscomfort but rather much joy in knowing God has placed a little life in her and this little human is alive and moving and interacting inside of her. I can share both of our joy at seeing the baby move and kick and punch and roll around inside of her. I can recall reading this child stories even knowing the baby does not understand english yet but knowing the baby hears our voice and will know our voice before it knows our faces.

So, I am not a woman but I still have experience and knowledge that gives what I say credibility.


*PS

I also noticed you have no children...

 

[Archivist]

First, she would not be carrying anyones sperm to term. It is a unique individual that only shares the dna of the mother and father.

If you aren't going to read what I have written, there is little sense in having this discussion. I never said the woman carried her attacker's "sperm" to term. I said "spawn." there is a difference.

The baby is innocent of any crime and that must always be part of your math.

The woman is also innocent of any crime, and never consented to be impregnated.

As for a woman who is trying to bring her baby in the world but the doctor says she has a chance of dying then in these cases we can examine them with the understanding of self defence and in cases of a mother protecting her life I can accept the killing of her baby.

But that cannot always be predicted.

Also, I do not believe in "forcing" any one to do anything.

But you want to force a woman to give birth to her attacker's spawn against her will.

But freedom does not mean we can commit whatever sins we want.

And I'm not proposing that we should commit whatevers ins we want.

I believe we are a country that is a God fearing country and we should have leaders that allow people to live a life for God and not restrict them.

America is not a Christians nation, but rather is a nation where the majority of the population is Christian. People should be free to live a life for God if they choose to do so.

I believe we pay taxes so our leaders can be good Chrisitans and help the poor and weak.

I pay takes so that will support the needy, not so that our leaders will be good Christians. The latter is up to them.

That for a woman who will bring another soul into the world and she cannot keep that child because of the father then our leaders should offer something for these people.

They should, but they don't always cover everything.

Not only do I believe this but the Catholic Church teaches similiar.

The ELCA teaches differently. No woman should be forced to act against her will simply because the Catholic Church teaches that she should.

As to me being a male respondent concerning a woman carrying a baby to term. I can only answer as you, based on what I have been told and read. But I stand by the fact that a human life cannot be exchanged for the removal of discomfort and pain for 6 months or so.

And I am simply saying that that decision must be left up to the person who will experience that discomfort, pain and possible loss of life.

I can also say that with all three of my kids the mother did not have a lot pain and doscomfort but rather much joy in knowing God has placed a little life in her and this little human is alive and moving and interacting inside of her.

Yes, but we are talking about a woman who is a victim of rape or incest. Her view might be considerably different.

I can share both of our joy at seeing the baby move and kick and punch and roll around inside of her. I can recall reading this child stories even knowing the baby does not understand english yet but knowing the baby hears our voice and will know our voice before it knows our faces.

Again, we are talking about a woman who is a victim of rape or incest, an entirely different situation.

So, I am not a woman but I still have experience and knowledge that gives what I say credibility.

Once again, we are talking about a woman who is a victim of rape or incest, an entirely different situation.

I also noticed you have no children...

Correct. That makes no difference in the current discussion.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

[If you aren't going to read what I have written, there is little sense in having this discussion. I never said the woman carried her attacker's "sperm" to term. I said "spawn." there is a difference.

My mistake...

But a difference??? Sure, sperm is what the woman's egg receives and is used with humans.

"Spawn" is something one would associate with an animal or fish dropping eggs in the hundreds.

Or even the book or movie or game "spawn" which is a representation of something not human.

SPAWN is something used to say it is gross and/or not human. Is that what you think of babies?

 

[Archivist]

My mistake...But a difference??? Sure, sperm is what the woman's egg receives and is used with humans. "Spawn" is something one would associate with an animal or fish dropping eggs in the hundreds. Or even the book or movie or game "spawn" which is a representation of something not human. SPAWN is something used to say it is gross and/or not human. Is that what you think of babies?

Actually the definition in OED says that the term can also be used for humans. However, if the term bothers you, feel free to substitute the word fetus instead.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Actually the definition in OED says that the term can also be used for humans. However, if the term bothers you, feel free to substitute the word fetus instead.

I like 'baby'

 

[Archivist]

I like 'baby'

Although baby is defined as "a very young child of either sex; an infant," which would not apply to a fetus.

BTW, Stedmen's definition of "life" is "1. Vitality, the essential condition of being alive; the state of existence, characterized by such functions as metabolism, growth, reproduction, adaptation, and response to stimuli; 2. Living organisms such as animals or plants."

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Although baby is defined as "a very young child of either sex; an infant," which would not apply to a fetus.

BTW, Stedmen's definition of "life" is "1. Vitality, the essential condition of being alive; the state of existence, characterized by such functions as metabolism, growth, reproduction, adaptation, and response to stimuli; 2. Living organisms such as animals or plants."

Sounds like there is life at conception

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Sounds like there is life at conception

Yep!

 

[Trashionista]

The belief that "life" begins at conception is a viewpoint - and not a viewpoint that is held by all people.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The belief that "life" begins at conception is a viewpoint - and not a viewpoint that is held by all people.

True. This is because many people are ignorant.

But as Catholics we KNOW life begins at conception and that life has a soul like you or me. It is nice being Catholic huh?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

From this post on 9-9-07

And humans are animals.

Until this post on 9-17-07

The belief that "life" begins at conception is a viewpoint that is held by all people.

There have been approximately 35,000 abortions in the USA.

Abortion has the biggest legal hole of all time. It is not just a question of being raped or having the possibility of dying. If we took all these abortions from 9-9-07 until today (9-17-07) and removed the rape cases and risk to mother's life cases we would still have over 35,000 abortions in the last 8 days.

If you respond to this post tomorrow about the same time you will be able to add another 4,400 slaughtered babies to this count.

 

[Calliso]

I donlt know if anyone actually thinks that it isn;t "alive" at conception I think the question is can it be called a person? Should it have the same rights as a fully grown baby or fetus? But really it may be alive..but then again so our the individual cells in your body. A single cell organism like an amoeba *I think that is single cell right?* is alive too.

 

[jad123]

I donlt know if anyone actually thinks that it isn;t "alive" at conception I think the question is can it be called a person? Should it have the same rights as a fully grown baby or fetus? But really it may be alive..but then again so our the individual cells in your body. A single cell organism like an amoeba *I think that is single cell right?* is alive too.

But do amoebas have souls?

 

[Archivist]

True. This is because many people are ignorant.

So all who do not share your personal view or the view of the Roman Catholic Church are ignorant?

But as Catholics we KNOW life begins at conception and that life has a soul like you or me.

And you are entitled to your interpretation. A Catholic woman who is a victim of rape or incest (which is the topic of this thread) may feel obliged because of her beliefs to carry the fetus to term. However, a waoman who does not share your beliefs should not be forced to carry a fetus to term against her will under such conditions.

It is nice being Catholic huh?

It is also nice being Lutheran.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

But do amoebas have souls?

Exactly!

As Christians we should be more concerned with the soul and eternal life then this life here on earth.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

So all who do not share your personal view or the view of the Roman Catholic Church are ignorant?

I did not make a claim that any one not Catholic is ignorant. You are putting words in my mouth.

I was replying to a Catholic person so I made a comment to her about our faith.

My remark about being ignorant is for all the people out there that think a fetus is nothing more the extra tissue of their body. It is not their body...

We know that a fetus is seperate from the mother and is a different human creature althogether based on scientific definitions and Christian beliefs. That the fetus lives in the mother for protection and nurishment. In reality the question is "why isn't the baby considered a person until it leaves the womb"?

 

[Trashionista]

Exactly!

As Christians we should be more concerned with the soul and eternal life then this life here on earth.

And... animals don't come into that?

Animals lead deep & emotional lives. How are they any less than me?

There are many humans I dislike, but I can't say there are many animals I have the same distaste for.

There have been approximately 35,000 abortions in the USA.

Abortion has the biggest legal hole of all time. It is not just a question of being raped or having the possibility of dying. If we took all these abortions from 9-9-07 until today (9-17-07) and removed the rape cases and risk to mother's life cases we would still have over 35,000 abortions in the last 8 days.

If you respond to this post tomorrow about the same time you will be able to add another 4,400 slaughtered babies to this count.

As for the babies comment, I don't believe abortion of a fetus is wrong. You can argue it 6 ways to Sunday, it doesn't change the viewpoint of many of those who err on the side of pro-choice.

Does a rape victim aborting her fetus really effect you that much?

 

[Trashionista]

True. This is because many people are ignorant.

But as Catholics we KNOW life begins at conception and that life has a soul like you or me. It is nice being Catholic huh?

Its fabulous.

What point are you trying to make? As far as the ignorant comment, I'd rather be "ignorant" [in the eyes of people I disgaree with completely] than be deemed judgemental. I guess that's just me though.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Its fabulous.

What point are you trying to make? As far as the ignorant comment, I'd rather be "ignorant" [in the eyes of people I disgaree with completely] than be deemed judgemental. I guess that's just me though.

I would think it is more important to be concerned about what God thinks of you than what others think of you???

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Calliso]

But do amoebas have souls?

Probably not..but does a child have a soul at conception? Personally I doubt this..otherwise God has certainly wasted a lot of souls...*natural miscarriages*