Religious Spirits

[Yitzchak]

Peter Wagner speaks about the Apostolic ceremony given for Bentley. The entire statement by Wagner is given at the link provided here.

FIRST LOVE MINISTRY : Peter Wagner Response to Lakeland 081108

The short version is Wagner was asked to get involved and intended the ceremony to be a first step to bringing Bentley under some accountability.

Throughout the early weeks of the Outpouring I watched it from time to time on TV, I followed the news items and rejoiced at what God was doing in Lakeland, but the matter was located toward the bottom of my priority scale. I also became aware of a rising number of criticisms and concerns about what was going on there, but I had very little interest in absorbing or analyzing them. This changed when I received a telephone call from Apostle Stephen Strader, Pastor of Ignited Church, and host of the Lakeland Outpouring. Stephen called me as the Presiding Apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles (ICA) of which he was a member. From first hand observation he described both the blessings and harsh opposition that they had begun to experience. Then he said, "Where are the apostles?"

Wagner endorsed the good in Lakeland , but did not endorse the wrongs that needed to be corrected.

Some have said that my very appearance in the ceremony constituted a de facto endorsement of the Lakeland Outpouring. I anticipated that this would be the case, and I felt I had to take the risk because I knew of no other way to proceed. So while it was an endorsement, I in no way meant it to imply that I was endorsing Lakelands's side of the controversial issues. For one thing I couldn't do that because I had not yet investigated them as I am doing now. I felt that the proper protocol was alignment first. However, I did feel, and still do, that what was wrong with the Outpouring should be corrected if at all possible rather than rejected out of hand.

Also of interest is the statement from well known NAR leader Dutch Sheets about the Lakeland situation.

FIRST LOVE MINISTRY : Dutch Sheets Response to Lakeland 082108

Did I endorse the Lakeland meetings? No, I did not, nor did I condemn them. I acknowledged that healings were occurring and some were being saved, which I still believe and rejoice over. I realized and stated that the thousands of people attending were hungry and sincere, as were those involved in leading the 2 meetings. The worship was regularly good. But looking past some of the immediate and positive results, I, like many, also looked ahead to the possible fruit from questionable doctrine and experiences, exaggeration and hype, youthful pride, character issues and the frightening potential of a 32 year "young" man leading a movement that could shape the future of the Church.

Dutch sheets concerning the endorsement ceremony by Wagner and associates.

Some of my closest friends endorsed and participated in the Lakeland meetings. For them I have both criticism--all of us lose credibility at this point if we're not completely honest--and affirmation. Should they have been more discerning and have listened to the warnings they received? Obviously. Should those who "aligned" Todd with spiritual fathers (which was a good thing and positioned him to receive help if he chooses to accept it) have realized to do so publicly was a mistake and could be interpreted by those watching in no other way than as a complete endorsement? Yes, they should have, especially when the event became a commissioning ceremony, complete with decrees and prophecies of going to higher levels, predictions of Todd's increasing world-wide influence and leading a world-wide revival, emphatic and prolific endorsements of his character, etc. How could those watching believe the evening was anything but an aligning, endorsing and commissioning ceremony? It was. It really doesn't matter who laid their hands on Todd--all share responsibility. This was unwise at best, naïve at least and at its worst, foolish. And should the leaders involved have realized that those of us connected to them relationally, ministerially, and as movements--some even in alignment with them apostolically and as sons and daughters--would feel minimalized, if not betrayed, by the fact that they were in essence taking us onto the stage with them? Yes. These feelings were inevitable, especially when we had such uneasiness and asked them not to. Should there be an acknowledgment of these mistakes to the body of Christ for the sake of accountability and in order to rebuild trust? I believe so, and remain hopeful this will happen.

 

[K2K]

A thought came to me today while trying to pick up something from the Lord. The thought was, "A perfect God uses imperfect people to accomplish His work."

It sounds to me like Mr. Wagner was endorsing a move of God as he saw it, without actually putting his endorcement on Mr. Bently. He seemed to think that there was an outpouring of the Spirit, Salvations occuring, and people turning to the Lord. If that was what he was endorsing, good for him.

I don't see where a religious spirit would want healing in the name of Jesus Christ, praisie for Jesus Christ, and certainly not salvations to occur. I could see where a religious spirit, or a demon that promoted adultery or achol abuse might want to stop such a movement by going after the person leading it. Yet it sounds like the Spirit of God was moving there, even if there were also religious spirits and other demons also working there.

I don't see where Mr Wagner condoned any sinful action. I don't think he would knowing do so. It seems to me that Mr Wagner promotes what he saw as a move of the Spirit of God, and by the book he wrote, also realizes the demon (aka Religious Spirits) get involved in the churches and the moves of God. I think we need to realize that also. Wasn't that the point Oscar was making in the beginning of the thread?

 

[Simon_Templar]

Now, you will agree that Jesus is our model of discernment. He had the closest walk with the Father than all of us put together. If anything could be discerned, then He would have discerned it.

Now, to apply your reasoning about Dr Wagner to Jesus Himself concerning association with false disciples and prophets. Do you realise that Jesus made Judas Iscariot one of the top twelve apostles and yet the man turned out to be a rogue. Now, according to your reasoning, you would have to take Jesus off your Christmas card list because He had someone who was a thief and a betrayer as one of His inner circle.

Now, if Jesus, the master discerner, allowed a thief and a betrayer as part of his inner circle, how can you condemn Dr Wagner for doing the same? Either you acquit Dr Wagner, or you criticise Jesus.

Do you see your dilemma? It is good to actually open the Bible sometimes and read it closely...

The difference is that Jesus actually knew Judas was a false disciple and was going to betray him and he allowed it in order to fulfill prophecy and to fulfill the Father's will, so that he could be betrayed and sacrificed for the sins of the world.

Do you see your dilemma? Its good to actually open your bible sometimes and read it closely...

 

[mrmccormo]

Thank you for posting that, Yitzchak.

It's interesting how - post-scandal - a lot of the leaders who supported Lakeland are now backpedaling and saying "no no no no, we didn't really support it".

C'mon. Show some integrity. It would make this whole situations far easier to swallow if people made a clean sweep, admitted they were wrong, stopped trying to "restore" a man who is both a false teacher and a false prophet, and move on with their ministries.

But trying to pass yourself off as a teacher of discernment while cramming as much dirt under the carpet as possible... doesn't seem very Godly to me.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I always find it amazing how the discernment of big name charismatic figures, much like prophecies of most of the 'prophets' are so much more accurate after the fact.

 

[Tobias]

Thank you for posting that, Yitzchak.

It's interesting how - post-scandal - a lot of the leaders who supported Lakeland are now backpedaling and saying "no no no no, we didn't really support it".

C'mon. Show some integrity. It would make this whole situations far easier to swallow if people made a clean sweep, admitted they were wrong, stopped trying to "restore" a man who is both a false teacher and a false prophet, and move on with their ministries.

But trying to pass yourself off as a teacher of discernment while cramming as much dirt under the carpet as possible... doesn't seem very Godly to me.

But see, you haven't even managed to convince people on this board that Bentley was a false teacher and false prophet, let alone those he is in ministry with! You do admit that there are two entirely different ways to deal with a fallen preacher, depending on whether he was following God or Satan before his fall, right?

What if say, you were falsely accused of murder. Do you imagine that it shows a lack of integrity if you don't publicly repent... for something you didn't do?

 

[mrmccormo]

But see, you haven't even managed to convince people on this board that Bentley was a false teacher and false prophet, let alone those he is in ministry with! You do admit that there are two entirely different ways to deal with a fallen preacher, depending on whether he was following God or Satan before his fall, right?

What if say, you were falsely accused of murder. Do you imagine that it shows a lack of integrity if you don't publicly repent... for something you didn't do?

He taught false teachings, he lived a life of lies and deception, and he made prophecies that turned out to be false. Pretty clear-cut to me.

I am saddened that you are not "convinced" by cold, hard truth.

 

[K2K]

If we are talking about the truth, we are talking about Jesus. If Jesus then the truth is what He has to say. If it is about what He has to say, then you must have heard Him.

Prophets are to be subject to prophets. If a person is not listening to the Lord can they have understanding?

Moses was a murderer, Noah a drunk, Sampson slept around, David and Soloman had numerouse wives. The list goes on. God uses who He will. The Pharasees seemed to live rightoues lives but were sons of the devil.

I'm not convinced that it wasn't the Spirit of God that caused revival in lakeland. It seems like many still believe that it was a move of God dispite the leaders problems. It sounds more like God choose someone that needed Gods help to help others that needed God's help. God seems to have had that tendancy through out history.

As far as I know, God has only ever used one perfect man to bring revival, and there were still those who pretending to be righteous lead others in putting Him on a cross. We should learn something from all that business about the cross, shouldn't we?

 

[mrmccormo]

Why the misdirection, K2K? No one here is asking for a perfect man to preach the gospel.

We're just asking that a preacher doesn't lie to us, teach us false things, make false prophecies, live a double life full of deception, and grub our money. That's not too much to ask out of a servant of God, is it?

 

[Yitzchak]

Thank you for posting that, Yitzchak.

It's interesting how - post-scandal - a lot of the leaders who supported Lakeland are now backpedaling and saying "no no no no, we didn't really support it".

C'mon. Show some integrity. It would make this whole situations far easier to swallow if people made a clean sweep, admitted they were wrong, stopped trying to "restore" a man who is both a false teacher and a false prophet, and move on with their ministries.

But trying to pass yourself off as a teacher of discernment while cramming as much dirt under the carpet as possible... doesn't seem very Godly to me.

You're welcome.

I do think that it is much more interesting and useful to actually look at what was said and done rather than speculating. of course there is always that element of reading between the lines , but it should at least be educated guesses versus just wishful thinking.

It seems to me , based upon the Dutch Sheets statement , that the NAR leaders were not all in agreement as to how to handle the situation. Wagner took it upon himself to speak for the group and not everyone appreciated that. Dutch Sheets seems to come right out and say that they should own up to the mistake and move on.

 

[Yitzchak]

Back to the subject at hand , the Book that Wagner wrote. Here is the link for the free review from amazon. I posted it once already but it got buried in the thread.


Amazon.com: Freedom from the Religious Spirit: Understanding How Deceptive Religious Forces Try To Destroy God's Plan and Purpose for His Church (9780830736706): Mr. C. Peter Wagner Ph.D: Books

I took the time to read the parts of the book that are available online.


The first thing that I noticed is that the subject of the book ties in with a more general theme in Wagner's books and ministry. That theme is spiritual warfare.

The second thing that I noticed is that Wagner comes straight out and says that "the spirit of religion" is not a biblical term. (chapter one , page 12 ) According to Wagner , there are many concepts which are not explicitly spelled out in the Bible. he uses the examples of the Trinity, abortion and Christmas. His point is that although the Bible does not speak directly about these concepts , that they are nonetheless important concepts for the church to deal with. His conclusion is that we must depend mostly upon extra Biblical supernatural revelation for help with dealing with the spirit of religion.

I have to admit that the second point makes me understand why Wagner's teachings on Spiritual warfare are a subject of controversy.

While I agree with him that there are many things that come up in life that the Bible does not specifically address. Driving a car , learning our ABC's , etc. I think it is quite a jump to write an entire book on extra biblical revelation.

Wagner's first Chapter comes right out and admits that he is taking very vague biblical concepts and developing the bulk of his teaching based upon extra biblical revelation.

While I can not rule out what he says as impossible. I also have no confirmation which I can trust that convinces me that what he says is true. Without biblical authority , we are left with only what the Lord confirms to us directly or with trusting Wagner's Apostolic authority. I do not trust that he is an Apostle which God appointed over me. I also have not had any direct revelation from God about these issues.

Much of what Wagner teaches on spiritual warfare seems to be based upon vague principles with a whole lot of literary license. It makes for a good conspiracy story , but it is impossible to prove and improbable to believe.

It reminds me of Frank Peretti's fictional books which I found to be very interesting. It also brings to mind a whole genre of reality based conspiracy stories that were made into movies. The Bourne Identity and National Treasure were popular movies that combined a seed of truth and realism that had a whole lot of dramatic literary license applied to them that kept the audiences on the edge of their seats.

Bottom line. Spiritual warfare is an interesting subject. But I need a whole lot more to accept this stuff hook , line and sinker. Wagner makes some interesting points and speculations to consider. But that is all it does for me.

We all probably agree that the Devil is at work even in the church amongst religious people. But that knowledge is of little use without some means to identify what is of God and what is not.

The subject of trust came up in this thread. Rightfully so. Do we trust Wagner to provide us with accurate teachings on these extra biblical issues ? Every person needs to be fully persuaded in their own mind.

 

[K2K]

Why the misdirection, K2K? No one here is asking for a perfect man to preach the gospel.

We're just asking that a preacher doesn't lie to us, teach us false things, make false prophecies, live a double life full of deception, and grub our money. That's not too much to ask out of a servant of God, is it?

That is certainly not too much to ask, but is almost unikely to happen by our complaining. I have seen pretty good preachers preaching hard on the merits of giving to their church. (the money grabbers) I have also seen all sorts of very repected preachers making their predictions of future events (the false prophets), which will probably not happen exactly like they stated. And I not sure that all the teachings I have heard from preacher were right (the false teachers) so as to be convinced they didn't have some false teachings.

The point is that we are not trying to follow imperfect men, but a perfect God by our own imperfect ways. Christian leaders (like Wagner), Christians in general, nor do I support the things that Bently was accused of. If Christian leaders and Christian as a whole supported leaving a man having big trouble battling with sin in a position of leadership after they found it out, that would be one thing, but they are not!!

If people were praising the Lord, being healed in the name of Jesus, and coming to know Jesus Christ as their saviour, then I feel the real leader of that move had to be the Holy Spirit, and He certainly knew everything that Todd Bently did and was doing. The Spirit could have brought it all to light much earlier, but must have choosen not to.

So what are we going to say; that Wagner should have done a intensive background check into Bently before showing up at a meeting where he could see the Spirit of God moving?

Can we say that Wagner can't or wasn't listening to God, and that is why Wagner didn't know about Bently's problem? I don't think so. God certainly knew, and if God really care He could have pointed it out to Wagner or any numerious other people. I think the Lord is in control. That the Lord knew, and decided to use Bently and didn't tell Wagner nor bring the problem to light at that time because of the results the Lord was getting.

If people were getting healed and coming to know the Lord, would you have ended it sooner because of Bently's problems. What about the people?

In conclusion, I think we should praise God for all the wonderful things that happen, and pray for Bently and all others that are in positions of leadership, and most important of all - we need to each make it a point to follow the Lord by listening to His voice. So what was the real problem?

There was a promise made in the Scriptures where if we listened to the voice of the Lord and not rebel against Him, we would always have a leader that followed God. So was the real problem Bently and all those bad, greedy, drunken, false prophets leading Christian movements, or is it our failure to listen to the Lord and follow Him?

1 Sam 12:14 If you will fear the Lord and serve Him, and listen to His voice and not rebel against the command of the Lord, then both you and also the king who reigns over you will follow the Lord your God.

I think the problem is clear. We don't listen to the voice of the Lord like we should, then wind up complaining about the things we are seeing from the leaders involved in the moves of God. The solution is just as clear, stop complaining and start listening to the Lord, and He will hold up His end of the promise.

 

[Hishandmaiden]

I have been victim of fake religious spirits, and it takes me quite awhile to distinguish between religious spirit and the holy spirit. Even today, I am still learning to distinguish.

 

[gratefulgrace]

What do you mean 'fake religious spirits"?

I remember years ago say pre 1983 when the church I attended was courting a lot of Word Faith preachers that one from Australia called me out of the audience and told me I had a religious sprit. I was not hostile with him had never met him before and was curious about it. Neither he nor the pastor could even explain what it could be let alone what is was in my case. All the criteria they mentioned where not even remotely relevant in my life. I was depressed however and let me tell you this sure did a lot to encourage me in my walk with God.....NOT What about Fake revelation about Religious Spirits? gg

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is a way that one can distinguish between someone who is full of the Holy Spirit and one who has a religious spirit.

The Spirit-filled person knows Jesus personally and can describe His character and recount numerous times when Jesus has spoken to him personally, referring to him by name. The Spirit-filled person values Jesus as his closest friend and puts that relationship before any church or religious system.

This is why Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or any other similar cult can never be Christian, because none of these people know Jesus on a personal level.

The religious person values his church, denomination, liturgy, ritual and doctrines above anything else. He cannot say that he knows Jesus personally, because he has never heard the Lord's voice in his heart. He can be totally orthodox and correct in his doctrines and theology, and yet be dead and cold in his personal relationship with Christ.

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the personal side of Jesus to a person, and when that person experiences it, he or she knows all about it. Many people will say they know Jesus, but really, all they know is what they know about Him. They have never met Him, even though they go to the "right" church, have the "right" theology, and have the "right" standard of personal holiness. But if they don't know Jesus personally, then they are religious and not Christian. In other words, they have nothing of value.

The Scripture says that "this is life eternal that they might know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent"

 

[K2K]

There is a way that one can distinguish between someone who is full of the Holy Spirit and one who has a religious spirit.

The Spirit-filled person knows Jesus personally and can describe His character and recount numerous times when Jesus has spoken to him personally, referring to him by name. The Spirit-filled person values Jesus as his closest friend and puts that relationship before any church or religious system.

This is why Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or any other similar cult can never be Christian, because none of these people know Jesus on a personal level.

The religious person values his church, denomination, liturgy, ritual and doctrines above anything else. He cannot say that he knows Jesus personally, because he has never heard the Lord's voice in his heart. He can be totally orthodox and correct in his doctrines and theology, and yet be dead and cold in his personal relationship with Christ.

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the personal side of Jesus to a person, and when that person experiences it, he or she knows all about it. Many people will say they know Jesus, but really, all they know is what they know about Him. They have never met Him, even though they go to the "right" church, have the "right" theology, and have the "right" standard of personal holiness. But if they don't know Jesus personally, then they are religious and not Christian. In other words, they have nothing of value.

The Scripture says that "this is life eternal that they might know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent"

What a wonderful post Oscarr!!!



Are we making God a computer where if we touch a button called prayer we might get what we want, or are we making God Lord where He is running everything and is everywhere so we need to get our instructions from Him and asks Him how we should go about doing things?

If you own and manage a large store, you might give authority to someone to run a checkstand, and to another to manage all the cashiers, but you still walk the store and listen to the employees.

Satan is call prince of the air, so hasn't God given him some authority and power, but God is placing everything at the feet of His son whose name is called the Word of God.

Some people write about Biblical authority, but what authority or power has been given to the Bible? None! The Bible has not been given power or authority because it is a book. So we read and study the book because it has valuable information, but we don't look to the book and think the book has the power and authority; it is that fellow we call God that walks around His creation that has the ultimate power and authority.

So we don't talk about Biblical authority, because there is no such thing. We talk to the Lord God because He exist and believers believe that! They believe that because they hear Him talking to them. Faith comes from hearing Him!!

So if someone writes, 'how do I know something is true', or 'I find what this person say interesting but how can I believe it', havn't they missed the obvious answer? The Lord is the truth, so just ask Him!! How is it they don't ask Him?

There are spiritual being out there other than God. Don't take my word on it, ask The Word of God. He is Lord of lords, and He will talk to you.

There are both spirits that serve God faithfully and those that rebel against Him. Don't take my word on it, ask the Lord.

There are spirits that tell you that going to church, doing works for the church, reading and studying your bible, and alsort of other religious acts is what will get you to heaven. Where did the idea of the Bible having authority as if it was a living being come from?

There are religious spirits (beings not made of flesh/demons). The Lord calls them deaf dumb spirits because they tell you that you to be religious instead of listening to the Lord and thinking He will talk to you. They make you deaf and dump in the presences of God. They have to be told, "Let those who have an ear to hear, hear what the Spirit says to the churches", and they are at virtually every Chrisitan church.

But don't take my word on it, hear what the Spirit has to say, and don't mention again about the Bible having authority. It's God, the One who had the Bible written, that has the authority. And don't say again, 'how do I know if it is not in the Bible', because The Word of God is near you, in your heart and on your lips. The problem is not that He is in your midst, the problem is that you don't believe it if you have to ask how you can know the truth. Ask the Truth, and listen to Him and you will know what I mean.

If you don't like the way I put it, read Oscars post. It is about a relationship with the Lord. And He will lead you into all understanding.

 

[K2K]

I have been victim of fake religious spirits, and it takes me quite awhile to distinguish between religious spirit and the holy spirit. Even today, I am still learning to distinguish.

Christian are those being taught by God and not God. Demons have been around alot longer than us, so they are pretty good at what they do. It is not the sheep but the shepard that really handles the problems. It's written that His sheep know His voice, but there are some spirits pretty good at imitating it. So Jesus said beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. We sometimes go astray, but He always finds us. We just have to keep listening for His voice. Seek and you shall find.

 

[Faulty]

There is a way that one can distinguish between someone who is full of the Holy Spirit and one who has a religious spirit.

The Spirit-filled person knows Jesus personally and can describe His character and recount numerous times when Jesus has spoken to him personally, referring to him by name. The Spirit-filled person values Jesus as his closest friend and puts that relationship before any church or religious system.

This is why Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or any other similar cult can never be Christian, because none of these people know Jesus on a personal level.

Actually, they can know a Jesus on a personal level, just not the Jesus revealed in the scriptures.

You want to tell a Mormon they don't know Jesus because He speaks to you personally, all they have to do is recount the numerous 'burnings' they've had in their bosom from the "spirit", and the personal revelations from Jesus which their 'prophets' receive on a regular basis, then you might wind up in an idiotic circular argument that your personal experiences trumph their personal experiences.

If someone wants a "Jesus" to talk to them in their head or visit them, it's not a stretch to figure there is some spirit out there that will oblige them.

The authority is not that a "Jesus" talks with someone, but that the Jesus whom we have our faith in, is indeed the one revealed in scriptures and no other, and that by hacking away at the foundation, their prophet Joseph Smith, by mentioning that the scripture reveals a prophet of God is monotheistic (Deut 15), and that the time of the prophets revelation from God ended with John (Matt 11:12, Luke 16:16, Heb 1:1-2), and not by saying "God talks to me".

 

[Simon_Templar]

*edit snip*

whats the use.

 

[K2K]

Actually, they can know a Jesus on a personal level, just not the Jesus revealed in the scriptures.

You want to tell a Mormon they don't know Jesus because He speaks to you personally, all they have to do is recount the numerous 'burnings' they've had in their bosom from the "spirit", and the personal revelations from Jesus which their 'prophets' receive on a regular basis, then you might wind up in an idiotic circular argument that your personal experiences trumph their personal experiences.

If someone wants a "Jesus" to talk to them in their head or visit them, it's not a stretch to figure there is some spirit out there that will oblige them.

The authority is not that a "Jesus" talks with someone, but that the Jesus whom we have our faith in, is indeed the one revealed in scriptures and no other, and that by hacking away at the foundation, their prophet Joseph Smith, by mentioning that the scripture reveals a prophet of God is monotheistic (Deut 15), and that the time of the prophets revelation from God ended with John (Matt 11:12, Luke 16:16, Heb 1:1-2), and not by saying "God talks to me".

Checking the spirits are important!!

Indeed as Christians, we often point out the value of checking the spirits against what is written in the Scriptures. There are many people named Jesus, and so a spirit may say that he is Jesus, but is he the Christ? Did he come in the flesh?

1 Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is nor from God.

If I say I believe that the Scriptures are from God, then shouldn't I be testing the spirits I hear from by using the specific test the Scriptures say to use.

What answer do you think I would get if I questioned Christians as to how often they used this test?

Now we were talking about religious spirits being inside Christian churches. So do we use the test given us? Have we ever picked up a spirit talking to you and used the test above only to be told, 'I can't tell you that.'

I have, and it amazes me. There are at least 3 religous spirits at the church I attend. There is one that seems to be in charge. About the first time I went to the chruch I sat down and hear a voice welcome me to the church. It was very pleasant and very business like. At the time I felt certain that it was an angel that served the Lord.

At some point later I was listening to the pastor preach and that same spirit sat next to me. We got to talking in the spirit and the angel seemed to shine a light on the pastor. Yet this was not one of the better sermons the pastor preached. There was really no mention of the Lord and Him being available to be heard from. So I ask the angel about that. The angel had a wishy washy answer something about it all being ok.

Now I have often used the test mentioned above during my walk through life. Sometimes I have used it a dozen times a day, and other days I too just don't think about it. I hadn't been using it at church. It didn't seem so important there. So I didn't use it at that time either. Yet later I got to thinking about the conversation and started up a conversation with the Lord about it.

That's when He brought my attention to the seven churches written to in Revelation and the fact that the letters were actually written to the angel at each church? He did give a direct answer, and rather asked me questions. Specfically He asked me, "What type of angel has to be written to?"

HUMM - I started looking forward to the day I would hear from that spirit again. I wanted to test it. Yet it wasn't coming around anymore. I say it and 2 other angels, with my spiritual eyes, coming out of the little room next to the stage one day. Then a while later after I had been doing some work for the Lord, it showed up at my home with the two others angels I had seen before. They were all dress up in puffy white robes with gold trim. They told me that they were kicking me out of the church, and that I was excommunicated.

I told them to leave my house now, but they appeared to not listen, when I then saw another angel that the Lord had me work with before come in from the side, and those three went in the blink of an eye. It was after that the Lord brought me back to Revelation and had me re-read the first three Chapters, specifically pointing out what was written to the angels.

To the angel of the church in Ephesus write... remember from where you have fallen

And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write...I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is

To the angel of the church in Sardis write:...you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead

And to all of them it was written, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches"

The Lord asked me, "Karl, what type of angel has to be told to let those that have an ear to hear, hear what the Spirit has to say to them?" He even made a comparison with 'Let those that have an ear to hear, hear' and 'Let my people go!' which He had Moses say.

Obviously the messages were for the seven churches, but they were specifically written to an angel in a chief seat at those churches, so the message applied to the angel also. There are fallen angels that dwell where Satan's throne is and appear to be alive but are dead, that have to be told, "Let those that have an ear to hear, hear what the Spirit says to the churches." They are called religous spirits.

I understand that if someone barely hears with their spiritual ears and does not see with their spiritual eyes, the story I gave above will probably be tosed aside like a story of a mad man. The only real solution is for people to start listening to the Lord themselves, and start learning from Him. He uses the Scriptures to teach, and we must all be taught of God. And the Lord said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (Rev 3:20)

So seek to listen to the voice of the Lord and test the spirits. Don't let nay sayers stop you, and don't let others who listen but forget to test the spirits stop you either. The Lord Jesus Christ is standing at the door waiting for anyone who is willing to listen to Him. You can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ just like Oscarr wrote, and just like is written in the Scriptures. And when you do, you'll not only find a King, but a kingdom also.

He is standing at the door, did you ever think about where the door led? It's not just about Him coming through the door into you, but also about you having an open door to His kingdom. Don't try entering the door to heaven through the large door called religion, but through the smaller door called Jesus Christ.

Jn 10:3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Jn 10:7 Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

If we believe the Scriptures are from God, we will be listening for His voice!!