Religious Spirits

[Tamara224]

why is Tenebrae a pagan, debating in this area?

Because we like her and value her insight. She's a long time member with an established reputation. That counts for a lot more than the icon or label she's sporting, IMHO.

Believe it or not, this -- the issue of promoting teachers of doctrines which
some of us here feel strongly ill at ease with, and the ad hominems which seem to nearly always follow --
is an issue which has been troubling many for far longer than you've been a member here.

Agreed.

 

[gratefulgrace]

Here is the video of Wagner endorsing Todd Bentley and the Lakeland Revival.



Peter Wagner endorses Todd Bentley - YouTube



Bear in mind though that this endorsement was not from Wagner alone. If I understand Wagner correctly , he presides over 500 Apostles in the apostolic network and they presumably were in agreement with his endorsement of Bentley and Lakeland. Not to mention John Arnott , Bill Johnson , Che Ahn , and several others who are present at this endorsement also.



Also , the Revival went for many nights in a row. It began April 3, 2008 and went for over 100 nights in a row. It was watched by literally millions around the world. Bentley was endorsed by literally millions of Christians around the world.





From Charisma magazine...

http://fireinmybones.com/index.php?col=081308~Life+After+Lakeland%3A+Sorting+Out+the+Confusion



I agree with the conclusion given by Charisma , highlighted above. Most people had never heard of Todd Bentley prior to Lakeland. People were hungry for Revival , not for Todd Bentley. Bentley was good at tapping into people's emotion and telling them what they wanted to hear. Namely that God was showing up with their miracle.


Confidence trick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk about religious spirits of deception. Wow...Have any of those involved ever come out with any sort of statement about this event?

 

[gratefulgrace]

Actually I don't think this is supposed to be a debate thread anyway there is another one for debate. I know sometimes we kind of cross the line a bit though. gg

 

[Faulty]

Talk about religious spirits of deception. Wow...Have any of those involved ever come out with any sort of statement about this event?

I saw a few of them, way back when. Same basic stuff you see on here, "Tripped up", "Will be Restored", "Fallen brother", etc.

Same lines. Same deception.

You could probably find them easily enough. I think I bookmarked them at some point, but they disappeared when my last computer did during my home robbery a couple months ago.

 

[gratefulgrace]

I just find it very interesting that someone so keen on identifying religious spirits missed this one.

 

[mrmccormo]

I just find it very interesting that someone so keen on identifying religious spirits missed this one.

Not only missed this one, but continues to support him by his silence of not commenting on the restoration of Bentley.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

I think the only one involved in the 'restoration' of Todd was Rick Joyner.

 

[mrmccormo]

I think the only one involved in the 'restoration' of Todd was Rick Joyner.

As far as I know, Dr. Wagner - who openly supported Bentley - has not said anything regarding Bentley's sin, Bentley's false teaching, Bentley's "restoration"...anything.

Until Wagner makes a comment on such things, it makes me doubt his ability to exercise discernment, let alone teach others how to exercise it.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

I don't know cause I haven't followed who has done what. I understand what you are saying.

 

[K2K]

God uses the foolish things of the world. So could God have used a sinful person for a revival?

I have seen bumper sticker which say, "Not Perfect, Just Forgiven". We are not trying to follow people are we?

If the Lord wanted to run a revival and bring more people to Him, and seems clearly to have been the case at the time, then are you going to complian about who He used?

Could have the Lord picked a man that needed help, to help others in need? Doesn't He pick us?

If someone has a problem with alchol, that is not a sign of having a religious spirit! If someone is cheating on his wife, that is not a sign of having a religious spirit! Someone that has a religious spirit tends to make it about religion instead of the Lord.

So what is happening when people bring someone forward wanting to throw the law at them (stone them spiritually speaking), because they were caught in a adulterous relationship? Which one of you are without sin?

If this happens, is it the person in the adulterous relationship or the people throw the law at that person that was influenced by religious spirits?

Is it not written, 'As you judge, so shall you be judged?'

God is a personal God, and the Word of God is in my heart and on my lips. So often I find the very thing I need to know about myself comes out as a judgement against others. It seems to be a cleaver way to God to bring my problems to my attention without accusing me. He seems to have made it so that I can determine how I am judged by how I am judging others.

So if start thinking another person has a religious spirit, I need to look to myself and make sure that a religious spirit is not influencing me.

 

[mrmccormo]

K2K

It's sad that the word "revival" has been so watered down these days. Every revival in the New Testament was a revival of repentance. I can't think of a single "revival" that was a bunch of Christians standing around getting "whacked on the Holy Spirit". You might also want to look up the revivals of early American history: these revivals also were focused on repentance of sin.

I'm a bit tired of being told that I shouldn't "judge". I get the sense that what I'm actually being told is not to think. "Judging" is a word with a specific Biblical meaning. When the Bible tells me not to "judge", it's telling me not to make a declaration on someone else's eternal destination.

No one here is doing that. No one here is saying "so-and-so is going to Hell for his sins". What we are doing is using our discernment, which God constantly tells us to do while He warns us against false teacher. We are using Scripture to determine whether or not a teaching is from God or if it is false.

I have committed many sins in my life. Yes, if I was to stand up and say "Bentley is going to Hell for his sins" then the judgment of Scriptures would be against me because I have sinned plenty. However, examining the teachings of these men and the obvious contradictions is not judging. The Bereans were commended - by Paul himself! - for doubting Paul's words and checking his Gospel against the words of Scripture.

 

[K2K]

K2K

It's sad that the word "revival" has been so watered down these days. Every revival in the New Testament was a revival of repentance. I can't think of a single "revival" that was a bunch of Christians standing around getting "whacked on the Holy Spirit". You might also want to look up the revivals of early American history: these revivals also were focused on repentance of sin.

I'm a bit tired of being told that I shouldn't "judge". I get the sense that what I'm actually being told is not to think. "Judging" is a word with a specific Biblical meaning. When the Bible tells me not to "judge", it's telling me not to make a declaration on someone else's eternal destination.

No one here is doing that. No one here is saying "so-and-so is going to Hell for his sins". What we are doing is using our discernment, which God constantly tells us to do while He warns us against false teacher. We are using Scripture to determine whether or not a teaching is from God or if it is false.

I have committed many sins in my life. Yes, if I was to stand up and say "Bentley is going to Hell for his sins" then the judgment of Scriptures would be against me because I have sinned plenty. However, examining the teachings of these men and the obvious contradictions is not judging. The Bereans were commended - by Paul himself! - for doubting Paul's words and checking his Gospel against the words of Scripture.

On the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came like tongues of fire, there were people standing around thinking that those filled with the Spirit were drunk. So what type of revival is that?

Concerning the examination of teachings of men and checking things against the Scriptures, how should we do that?

Is 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord

If the people with the adulterous woman did anything right, it was going to the Lord to reason with Him!!

He told them, "Let the one without sins throw the first stone."

Of course He was the only one there without sin. So they all just turn and left the lady alone with Jesus Christ. So what whould be done with Mr. Bently?

 

[mrmccormo]

On the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came like tongues of fire, there were people standing around thinking that those filled with the Spirit were drunk. So what type of revival is that?

Were they acting drunk, or did people simply misunderstand and think that they were drunk? There's a difference. People also thought that Jesus had a demonic spirit in him. Was that because Jesus was actually acting demon-possessed? You tell me.

Also, Pentecost itself was not a revival. The revival came a bit later when Peter preached to the crowd and 3,000 were saved.

Concerning the examination of teachings of men and checking things against the Scriptures, how should we do that?

Is 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord

If the people with the adulterous woman did anything right, it was going to the Lord to reason with Him!!

He told them, "Let the one without sins throw the first stone."

Of course He was the only one there without sin. So they all just turn and left the lady alone with Jesus Christ. So what whould be done with Mr. Bently?

The adulterous woman was teaching the Bible, teaching thousands of people, watched by millions on TV, raking in the cash, performing miracles, calling down angels, and then getting caught in lies? Because unless that's the case, you're twisting Scripture to suit your own needs. Even Jesus said "Go and sin no more" to the woman. He didn't make excuses for her sins. He merely put her accusers in their place. No one here is dragging Bentley out to be stoned. We simply want to examine his teachings. BIG difference.

 

[K2K]

The only reason why Todd Bentley was brought up in the first place was because someone commented that Dr. Wagner promoted and supported Todd Bentley prior to his fall, and so far Dr. Wagner has not said anything about Bentley following Bentley's fall and "restoration".

So, the following question was raised: why should we learn from someone on the topic of spiritual discernment when they seem to lack it themselves?

Then, the discussion devolved into whether or not Bentley was wrong, whether or not Wagner "should have" discerned Bentley's falsehood, etc.

Yes the thread did "devolved into whether or not Bentley was wrong, whether or not Wagner "should have" discerned Bentley's falsehood, etc."

That was my point. I believe the point of the thread was suppose to be tied into the last line Oscar wrote in the original post -"It's easy to see the devil when he appears with horns and pitchfork. But when he appears as an angel of light, it takes someone who is in close fellowship with God to recognise him.
__________________

So the thread was on religious spirits, and that seemed to me an excellent topic for a Christian forum. Sadly though, it, like other threads often do, became a place to attack other Christians. especially the famous.

So someone questions Wagner's ability to write on the subject, but if we can't even stay on the subject and instead start making a thread on fallen people or wrong Christians instead of a thread on relegious spirits, is that because we ourselves are being influenced by these spirits?

Maybe Wagner is not so qualified to write on the subject, but he seems at least as well qualified as those who got off the subject on this forum. I believe Oscar's point in making the thread is an excellent point for all of us!!

 

[Yitzchak]

Talk about religious spirits of deception. Wow...Have any of those involved ever come out with any sort of statement about this event?

I found this article that talks about a statement that Wagner made..

Peter Wagner Expounds on Todd Bentley Fiasco | The Voice Christian magazine




Here is a more recent statement by Wagner on his website.

Todd Bentley Update

Here is a part of that statement. Stephen Strader is the Pastor of Ignited Church.

Many friends of Global Harvest have been following the events surrounding the rise and demise of the Lakeland Outpouring, and I feel that it is timely to give a brief update. Although I had not been involved with the ongoing event, in the summer of 2008 I was called in by Stephen Strader whose church in Lakeland first hosted Todd Bentley to bring some apostolic leadership to what appeared to some to be a deteriorating situation. After studying, praying, and consulting others about the situation, I determined that what had been lacking was authentic apostolic alignment on the part of Todd. So, with his agreement, I led a public ceremony in which he voluntarily became aligned with Apostles Ché Ahn, Bill Johnson, and John Arnott of the Revival Alliance.

This type of apostolic alignment typically results in a spiritual transaction in the invisible world which can have different effects in the natural, according to the circumstances at hand. In this case a veil of secrecy over ungodly practices going on in Todd’s life was removed two days after the alignment and the demise of the Lakeland Outpouring began.....

John Arnott has made at least two public statements that I know of.

 

[Tenebrae]

Tenebrae, you are responsible for your own choices. Don't blame people that may not have the answer. We don't know everything.

Simply put, I dont. I work with people who are in my service as a direct result of their experiences in charismatic churches and at the hands of people like Todd Bentley and Peter Wagner. They have been so wounded by those experiences, they are unwilling to approach christian based services and would rather chance getting help in secular mental health organisations

my humble answer to this, is NO one is responsible for a person walking away from their faith. they choose to do this on their own. there will always be "problem" people in the church. in the end, we are responsible for ourselves and our decisions. when we stand before the Father, we can't point our finger and say "well, so and so made me walk away".

Wow, talk about misrepresenting what I said.

I think you've misunderstood Tenebrae's question.

I believe her question is this:

why is it ok for you to sit in judgement of people who speak out against problematic members of the church?


​

She then described the problematic members as those who are harming the church, those who have even caused people to leave the faith.

Her concern also appears to be with the double standard of speaking out against people who speak out against the problem members; or judging people who judge.


Hope this helps.
Simon

Nailed it in one, i try to live my life by the same standards as I expect of other people. Its all very well to say that its wrong to sit in judgment of people like Peter Wagner, I have often noticed those same people then make judgements about the people who are commenting on actions of people like Wagner, Bentley, et al

Simon, I work in community mental health, basically working with people with axis one mental health diagnosises. I have people on my caseload that would solely be there because of their experiences in charismatic churches, at the hands of people like Todd Bentley.

It scares me that this doesnt scare the heck out of christians, believers that have been so stuffed around by the church that they are getting help for those issues from secular health organisations because they have been so messed up by their church experience...

I'd always believed that christianity was about a relationship with God that was supposed to set people free, help them to live more fulfilled lives and in turn be a blessing to others. It chills me to the bone when I see people that are terrified to enter a church, or talk to a pastor because of their occupation and previous experiences of church. Its all very well and good to say that people arent responsible for people walking away from the christian faith however this IMO is a cop out, and a way of avoiding taking responsibility for their actions

Because we like her and value her insight. She's a long time member with an established reputation. That counts for a lot more than the icon or label she's sporting, IMHO.


[/b]
Agreed.

Thanks, you totally made my day

 

[Migdala]

Ive seen spirits pretend to be God saying "I love you" sounded like jesus..sounded sympathatic..but caused alot of hurt and pain....

Interesting! Can you give examples? I did hear of one woman who said that what she thought was Jesus was actually starting to attempt sex with her! So I guess it was some sort of incubus pretending to be Jesus. VERY scary thought there!

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

Simply put, I dont. I work with people who are in my service as a direct result of their experiences in charismatic churches and at the hands of people like Todd Bentley and Peter Wagner. They have been so wounded by those experiences, they are unwilling to approach christian based services and would rather chance getting help in secular mental health organisations



Wow, talk about misrepresenting what I said.


Nailed it in one, i try to live my life by the same standards as I expect of other people. Its all very well to say that its wrong to sit in judgment of people like Peter Wagner, I have often noticed those same people then make judgements about the people who are commenting on actions of people like Wagner, Bentley, et al

Simon, I work in community mental health, basically working with people with axis one mental health diagnosises. I have people on my caseload that would solely be there because of their experiences in charismatic churches, at the hands of people like Todd Bentley.

It scares me that this doesnt scare the heck out of christians, believers that have been so stuffed around by the church that they are getting help for those issues from secular health organisations because they have been so messed up by their church experience...

I'd always believed that christianity was about a relationship with God that was supposed to set people free, help them to live more fulfilled lives and in turn be a blessing to others. It chills me to the bone when I see people that are terrified to enter a church, or talk to a pastor because of their occupation and previous experiences of church. Its all very well and good to say that people arent responsible for people walking away from the christian faith however this IMO is a cop out, and a way of avoiding taking responsibility for their actions




Thanks, you totally made my day

my apologies then. So, let me try and understand, you are saying that most people on your case load are there directly because of the Charismatic movement? Did I read that correctly?

 

[K2K]

Were they acting drunk, or did people simply misunderstand and think that they were drunk? There's a difference. People also thought that Jesus had a demonic spirit in him. Was that because Jesus was actually acting demon-possessed? You tell me.

Also, Pentecost itself was not a revival. The revival came a bit later when Peter preached to the crowd and 3,000 were saved.



The adulterous woman was teaching the Bible, teaching thousands of people, watched by millions on TV, raking in the cash, performing miracles, calling down angels, and then getting caught in lies? Because unless that's the case, you're twisting Scripture to suit your own needs. Even Jesus said "Go and sin no more" to the woman. He didn't make excuses for her sins. He merely put her accusers in their place. No one here is dragging Bentley out to be stoned. We simply want to examine his teachings. BIG difference.

If numerious people though they devote believers who were just filled with the Spirit of God were drunk, they must have had the appearance of being drunk!!! They weren't but even Peter knew he was acting drunk, or why else did he bring it up?

The Pharisees thought that Jesus had a demon, but they were the ones who had the devil as a father. They were the ones possessed. And by what we would call 'Religious Spirits'.

Religious spirits do not act like a spirit of aultery or a spirit of divination. Religious spirits try hard to keep concealed. They make it about the law, religious traditions, and pride, instead of making it about knowing the Lord and listening to what He says.

So it would make sense that if we tried to expose religious spirits inside the church (and they certainly are there, that is why we call them religious spirits0 they would try to change the subject from themselves to the law or religious traditions. That was how the thread got changed. So who was behind the thread getting sidetracked?

If the pentecost was not a revival, what do you think it was. My friend, the Lord sent the Spirit of God like in the parable, to act like fertilizer around a plant. The Spirit of God is the revival!! So we see the beginning of the effect of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost, and like major revivals cause by the Holy Spirit today, it built and thousands were drawn in. A revival is a move of the Spirit!! That seems obvious.

Stoning a person, spiritually speaking, is attacking them with the law. The law was handed down in stone, and like stone, it will not go away. Not one letter of it goes away. And you are right about Jesus simply saying, 'go sin no more'. So if that is how Jesus acted, how are we to act?

Should we bring up the sins of a person over and over to examine it? Is that what Jesus did? Bently was first mentioned on the second page of this thread, and comes us again and again. Even now he is being made the topic, instead of the religious spirits.

Are you going to examine his teaching by telling me "The adulterous woman was teaching the Bible, teaching thousands of people, watched by millions on TV, raking in the cash, performing miracles, calling down angels, and then getting caught in lies?" Is that was is called examining his teachings. It sounds a lot more like bringing up his sins!

He was telling people about Jesus Christ also. And Paul like to hear Jesus preach for whatever reason. So if Paul felt that way, how do you think the Spirit feels about it. Bently did not do any miracles. But if miracles occured in the name of Jesus Christ, it wasn't a religious spirit that cause them. A religious spirit is trying to make it about religion, not Jesus Christ.

And if Jesus was proclaimed to millions on TV, then did the devils cause that? The demons would be the one trying to mess it up. So demons would cause a person to lie, go after alchol, be adulterous, and if they can get a person in a cheif seat, so much the better. Still the Lord, because He is a personal God, might allow all that to happen to the person in the cheif seat, so as to get them to repent. God cares about Bently, and might certanly let the attack on him come just to get Bently to repent.

Of coures after a revival (a move of the Spirit) the demons need to keep working to disparage any work of the Spirit. And that is what we now see, by the bring up the faults of Bently instead of looking at the effect that the revival had on millions. Did not some (many, many) people see the revival and given credit to God, looked for Jesus Christ. If they seek Him, they will find Him.

So because of the revival, (which by the way, I didn't follow but only heard about it from numerious Christians) millions turned their attentions to the Lord. The revival was a success. And if it gets Bently to repent of his sins, then that is just one more person which the revival helped.

Now if someone wants to examine a teaching, present the teaching (the author is not if major importance in presenting the teaching) and make a case. For example, concerning calling down angels. Many Christian believe that we can ask the Lord for angels that serve Him to help. It is not necessary to go after a particular person to discuss it.

We not only preach the Word (Jesus Christ), but we also preach the Kingdom of God, and He Himself explained that He was a king. We preach the Kingdom also, because the Kingdom (angels and other spiritual being that serve the King) because the Kingdom of God has power. The type of power that say a religiious spirit, would not come up against. So demons would try to influence people to not belive that we can ask the Lord for help from His Kingdom.

So we see people (and need to consider by whom they (and us) are being influenced, because our battle is not with flesh and blood but powers and principalities) who disparage moves of the Spirit, don't like people to think that we can ask the Lord for help from the Kingdom of God which we are supposed to be preaching. Go after people in the guise of examining their teaching, which they are actually not doing.

We do need to consider religious spirits and other demonic spirits to understand how the battle takes place. And it does take place, like was suggested, inside the church and we are the church.

Wagner and others that supported Bently, did not support his sinning did they? So Wagner write a book about religious spirits and how they are in the church. It sounds like an excellent book and a worthy topic. I havn't read the book, but I dount Wagner went after particular people while writing the book. I'll bet that he was trying to get us to look at how we are affected by spirits.

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On​

This thread has been cleaned up to remove some personal comments and a lot of off topic posts.
Please stick to discussing the OP and address the topic not other posters.
Thanks

Mod Hat Off​