Religious Person v. drag person charged with sex crimes against children.

[Larniavc]

Missing a word in that last sentence, I think.

Eeek! Well spotted. Sort.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I think the issue is that labels of ‘child molesters and sexual predator’ is being incorrectly applied to a group where the incidence is no more than the general population.

And this is contrasted by the seeming ignorance of the vastly more prevalent incidence in the clergy.

Yet the accusation against the drag community continue despite posters being repeatedly informed that paedophillia amongst the drag community is vastly less common than in the clergy.

Given the rates on who's more likely to sexually abuse here in the US, it's more of a "power dynamic" thing than it is associated with any profession/ideology/institution.

Parents/Other Family Members/Teachers/Clergy/Coaches are statistically more likely to do it than strangers.

But "threat/risk of the person luring the kid into a van" isn't really the crux of the concerns (from my understanding) with regards to drag performances tailored for kids. It's the concern that youths (at large) -- who will become future policy makers -- are being indoctrinated with worldviews and values that aren't their own and may want to copycat certain behaviors because it's being portrayed as "cool".

For instance, if there were libraries hosting "Fun with Guns story hour" where the person reading the story is a firearms instructor openly packing heat and large groups of kids are being indoctrinated with pro-gun values and being presented in such as a way that they saw it as "cool" (which means they may want to copycat the behavior long after the story hour is over)

...statistically speaking, while that child is less likely to be harmed by that firearms instructor than they would be by a baseball coach, that wouldn't invalidate concerns from progressive parents about which values (and which potentially emulate-able behaviors) other kids in their town (who their kids will be going to school with) are picking up.

 

[rjs330]

Conservatives.

Nah, noy really. I don't think people are looking for pastors either. I think it's just that when one is it gets a lot of splashy headlines from the main stream media. If a drag queen gets arrested they do t really care. And how would they find out anyway if they are a drag queen. That's my point. They don't care. And your really have to dig into the person's background to find out. And people aren't that interested in doing that. Not even conservatives.

I'm not really interested in this thread that much because I don't believe there really is a way of accurately determining this.

How many drag queens are there in the US? I know there are over 400,000 main stream protestant clergy. And most likely triple that for general church leaders. What percentage of any of them have been involved in child sex crimes?

The answer should be 0. But all we are doing in this thread is trying to say well clergy etc are worse than drag queens. How do we know? We don't have numbers to find out so it's irrelevant and so is this thread.

Peace out.

 

[rjs330]

Given the rates on who's more likely to sexually abuse here in the US, it's more of a "power dynamic" thing than it is associated with any profession/ideology/institution.

Parents/Other Family Members/Teachers/Clergy/Coaches are statistically more likely to do it than strangers.

But "threat/risk of the person luring the kid into a van" isn't really the crux of the concerns (from my understanding) with regards to drag performances tailored for kids. It's the concern that youths (at large) -- who will become future policy makers -- are being indoctrinated with worldviews and values that aren't their own and may want to copycat certain behaviors because it's being portrayed as "cool".

For instance, if there were libraries hosting "Fun with Guns story hour" where the person reading the story is a firearms instructor openly packing heat and large groups of kids are being indoctrinated with pro-gun values and being presented in such as a way that they saw it as "cool" (which means they may want to copycat the behavior long after the story hour is over)

...statistically speaking, while that child is less likely to be harmed by that firearms instructor than they would be by a baseball coach, that wouldn't invalidate concerns from progressive parents about which values (and which potentially emulate-able behaviors) other kids in their town (who their kids will be going to school with) are picking up.

Now this is worth discussing!

 

[ThatRobGuy]

lol, you don’t consume much kids media, do you? The people who make that stuff have to be blitzed out of their minds.

I was using an extreme example for effect lol.

But my underlying point was that there are concerns apart from "Person XYZ may lure my kid into a van". The fact that "Adults in ideology ABC have higher abuse rates than Adults in ideology XYZ" isn't always indicative of something relating to the ideology itself.

For instance, football coaches put more kids in harms way than firearms instructors. That wouldn't/shouldn't disqualify a person who likes football from critiquing gun culture as whole.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

One can have concerns about Draq queen children book reading hours at libraries. In fact it seems enough concern to the point states are literally passing legislation to prevent that from happening. Yet from those same groups who see a legislative need to to protect children from those book readings, not one legislative concern come the actual and factual abuses from church organizations. To say drag performers molesting children is merely less prevalent as juxtaposed to the long and deep rooted issues the church has with abuse is a understatement.
This is the definition of grooming:

2. the action by a pedophile of preparing a child for a meeting, especially via an internet chat room, with the intention of committing a sexual offense.​

Given what grooming means drag queens grooming children just isn't a thing. On the other hand too many church orgs have in fact committed atrocities that are exactly what grooming means.

Let's face it, drag queen grooming is just another "election fraud" "CRT" "socialism" made up boogieman for the sake of political power.

I would agree 100% that "protect the kids" is something that's often done with the phony patina of objectivity, but is in fact done with specific focus on "things the other side does".

I've not been bashful about critiquing religious entities for the sex abuse scandals in the Churches.

But I don't purely see the "Drag queen story hour" as a boogeyman. It's clearly meant to instill some sort of values in children, correct? Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it given that the two things (reading and drag performance) seemingly have little in the way of overlap in terms of aptitudes and specificity.

It'd be one thing if kids were in a class that focused on dance and performing arts, and they brought in drag performers in to teach a new type of performance art. Obviously, there'd still be some ticked off conservative parents, but at least the concept would logically make sense as drag performance is a niche form and extension of performing art (that sometimes involves dance).

...but Drag queen story hour makes about as much sense, logically speaking, as a drag queen carpentry class.


And I think people (and libraries) realize that part of the point of injecting an extraneous idea in with a "story hour" is for the purposes of promulgating certain values relating to that extraneous idea. Evidenced by the fact that libraries (at the request of some local parents and staff) initially denied requests from Kirk Cameron to do a story time...because it was pretty clear that Cameron was trying to push a certain agenda that wasn't just "reading to kids"

 

[rjs330]

I would agree 100% that "protect the kids" is something that's often done with the phony patina of objectivity, but is in fact done with specific focus on "things the other side does".

I've not been bashful about critiquing religious entities for the sex abuse scandals in the Churches.

But I don't purely see the "Drag queen story hour" as a boogeyman. It's clearly meant to instill some sort of values in children, correct? Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it given that the two things (reading and drag performance) seemingly have little in the way of overlap in terms of aptitudes and specificity.

It'd be one thing if kids were in a class that focused on dance and performing arts, and they brought in drag performers in to teach a new type of performance art. Obviously, there'd still be some ticked off conservative parents, but at least the concept would logically make sense as drag performance is a niche form and extension of performing art (that sometimes involves dance).

...but Drag queen story hour makes about as much sense, logically speaking, as a drag queen carpentry class.


And I think people (and libraries) realize that part of the point of injecting an extraneous idea in with a "story hour" is for the purposes of promulgating certain values relating to that extraneous idea. Evidenced by the fact that libraries (at the request of some local parents and staff) initially denied requests from Kirk Cameron to do a story time...because it was pretty clear that Cameron was trying to push a certain agenda that wasn't just "reading to kids"

The vast majority of conservatives are not against drag queens teaching children because we think they are a bunch of pedophiles trying to molest kids. Any more than youth pastors are all there to molest kids.

The drag queens are there to teach their values and present to themselves in a way to encourage kids to not only accept the queens but to consider being one themselves. That's why we see them dancing and strutting and spreading their legs in front of children and encouraging the kids to join them and get money. This is all about validating themselves and if they can get kids involved then that's a huge validation.

And like you said they understand exactly what this does. Otherwise they would not be concerned about Kirk Cameron or Matt Walsh reading to kids in the library.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

That's why we see them dancing and strutting and spreading their legs in front of children and encouraging the kids to join them and get money.

Where do you get the idea that drag queens make any significant amount of money? The only one that I know still lives with his parents because he can't afford to move out.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Very religious people should get more negative attention, than other people.When it comes to bad behavior. Since religious people are supposed to be well behavior. But they should both be punished equally. I put Transgender people in the same group as other or religious people. Depending on the person.

 

[Say it aint so]

I would agree 100% that "protect the kids" is something that's often done with the phony patina of objectivity, but is in fact done with specific focus on "things the other side does".

I've not been bashful about critiquing religious entities for the sex abuse scandals in the Churches.

But I don't purely see the "Drag queen story hour" as a boogeyman. It's clearly meant to instill some sort of values in children, correct? Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it given that the two things (reading and drag performance) seemingly have little in the way of overlap in terms of aptitudes and specificity.

It'd be one thing if kids were in a class that focused on dance and performing arts, and they brought in drag performers in to teach a new type of performance art. Obviously, there'd still be some ticked off conservative parents, but at least the concept would logically make sense as drag performance is a niche form and extension of performing art (that sometimes involves dance).

...but Drag queen story hour makes about as much sense, logically speaking, as a drag queen carpentry class.


And I think people (and libraries) realize that part of the point of injecting an extraneous idea in with a "story hour" is for the purposes of promulgating certain values relating to that extraneous idea. Evidenced by the fact that libraries (at the request of some local parents and staff) initially denied requests from Kirk Cameron to do a story time...because it was pretty clear that Cameron was trying to push a certain agenda that wasn't just "reading to kids"

I would imagine the parents who take their kids to drag queen readings are vastly people who are part of or identify with the LBGTQ community. So yes, I agree with you there is an attempt to instill some value. But I don't know, given the LBGTQ communities long history of being excluded, I would think that value is inclusion. Even of those who dress as they wish.

Maybe or maybe not, but I would like to think I made my point in the chasm of concern difference between reading and actual abuse and the orgs who have a long history of being steeped in that abuse. Oddly enough the vast majority of those who show up and protest these readings are the very same people who are members of those orgs who, again, have a long history of being steeped in that abuse. I just find the juxtaposition in concern baffling.

 

[Say it aint so]

The vast majority of conservatives are not against drag queens teaching children because we think they are a bunch of pedophiles trying to molest kids. Any more than youth pastors are all there to molest kids.

The drag queens are there to teach their values and present to themselves in a way to encourage kids to not only accept the queens but to consider being one themselves. That's why we see them dancing and strutting and spreading their legs in front of children and encouraging the kids to join them and get money. This is all about validating themselves and if they can get kids involved then that's a huge validation.

And like you said they understand exactly what this does. Otherwise they would not be concerned about Kirk Cameron or Matt Walsh reading to kids in the library.

I don't know, but every reading I have ever stumbled upon come children at libraries, the reader is sitting in a chair. Where do you get this "dancing and strutting and spreading their legs in front of children and encouraging the kids to join them and get money."?

 

[rjs330]

Where do you get the idea that drag queens make any significant amount of money? The only one that I know still lives with his parents because he can't afford to move out.

Does that somehow change anything I said?

 

[rjs330]

Very religious people should get more negative attention, than other people.When it comes to bad behavior. Since religious people are supposed to be well behavior. But they should both be punished equally. I put Transgender people in the same group as other or religious people. Depending on the person.

Not saying they shouldn't. Jesus certainly called out the religious hypocrites. They should be held accountable. In fact James says the leaders are held even more accountable by God.

The concern isn't that religious leaders shouldn't be held accountable. It's about the values and ideology being taught to kids when parents don't want them taught those things.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Does that somehow change anything I said?

Aside from pointing out how the scenario you're presenting is 100% fictional/exaggerated?

 

[rjs330]

I don't know, but every reading I have ever stumbled upon come children at libraries, the reader is sitting in a chair. Where do you get this "dancing and strutting and spreading their legs in front of children and encouraging the kids to join them and get money."?

You've not seen the drag queen videos where they are doing that? They've even had drag queen dancing events at libraries where they teach kids. Kids attend readings then they attend dance class. If you can't see the issues then I'm certainly not going to convince you.

In an article written by Drag Queen believers they admit what they are doing. It's not just to read a book to children. No it's to teach them certain values and ideology.

We propose that DQSH offers a particular kind of queer framework – what we call drag pedagogy – for teaching and learning that extends beyond traditional approaches to LGBT curricular inclusion. The themes within drag pedagogy, applicable beyond the context of drag itself, move away from vocabulary lessons and the token inclusion of LGBT heroes to begin to engage deeper understandings of queer cultures and envision new modes of being together. We emphasize that drag pedagogy resists didactic instruction and is not prescriptive. Instead, it artfully invites children into building communities that are more hospitable to queer knowledge and experience.

They also include:

• We propose that DQSH offers a particular kind of queer framework – what we call drag pedagogy – for teaching and learning that extends beyond traditional approaches to LGBT curricular inclusion.
• We emphasize that drag pedagogy … artfully invites children into building communities that are more hospitable to queer knowledge and experience.
• We are guided by the following question: what might Drag Queen Story Hour offer educators as a way of bringing queer ways of knowing and being into the education of young children? [emphasis in original]

So it's far more than just funny looking people reading to kids.

 

[rjs330]

Aside from pointing out how the scenario you're presenting is 100% fictional/exaggerated?

Except there is video.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

They also include:

• We propose that DQSH offers a particular kind of queer framework – what we call drag pedagogy – for teaching and learning that extends beyond traditional approaches to LGBT curricular inclusion.
• We emphasize that drag pedagogy … artfully invites children into building communities that are more hospitable to queer knowledge and experience.
• We are guided by the following question: what might Drag Queen Story Hour offer educators as a way of bringing queer ways of knowing and being into the education of young children? [emphasis in original]

So it's far more than just funny looking people reading to kids.

Right - it's "funny-looking people reading to kids in order to teach them inclusivity". Seriously, there's absolutely nothing threatening about what you cited there. It's just a bunch of corpo-speak and buzzwords that amount to "we want to teach kids that it's okay to be queer without focusing on pronouns/vocabulary and blatantly-inserted LGBT characters". If you have a problem with that, then I don't really know what to tell you. "Don't take your kids to Drag Queen Story Hour," I guess?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Except there is video.

There's video of a lot of things. A few videos don't constitute an agenda though.

 

[rjs330]

Right - it's "funny-looking people reading to kids in order to teach them inclusivity". Seriously, there's absolutely nothing threatening about what you cited there. It's just a bunch of corpo-speak and buzzwords that amount to "we want to teach kids that it's okay to be queer without focusing on pronouns/vocabulary and blatantly-inserted LGBT characters". If you have a problem with that, then I don't really know what to tell you. "Don't take your kids to Drag Queen Story Hour," I guess?

So you finally admit that DQSH is not about people dressing up and just reading books. At least I finally got som one to admit they are teaching certain values and ideology to the kids.

Man that's refreshing. Forever we've just heard how DQs just read books and there was no agenda except simply to read a book. Now we get some admittance that it is FAR more than that.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

So you finally admit that DQSH is not about people dressing up and just reading books. At least I finally got som one to admit they are teaching certain values and ideology to the kids.

Man that's refreshing. Forever we've just heard how DQs just read books and there was no agenda except simply to read a book. Now we get some admittance that it is FAR more than that.

That's not the "gotcha" that you seem to think it is. If you have a problem with children learning how to be accepting, inclusive people, you may be the problem. Just sayin'.