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Religious identity

JackofSpades

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Don't make it about other people. Just make it about you and God.


Well, since the point was to seek things I probably don't understand about Christianity, this is definetly one. I can't understand how it's not supposed to have social dimension at all. It sounds to me like you're saying that "Going to high school is just about you and your teacher, no other people involved, ignore anyone who claims to be your classmate, they have nothing to do with your school experience." I guess when most of us think back to high school, it's the classmates who come first in mind.

But I will think about that.


My point here is that you're making Christianity out to be like a sort of club with a bunch of varying branches--I don't blame you for having that approach. You're not the first non-Christian I've seen who said that, actually. My point is that with Christianity your decision upon whether you "join us" or not is not based off of the effort of people who already believe--it's based upon your personal connection with Christ, and whether or not you are willing to submit to Him.

This is practically same thing as previous one, I don't indeed get the idea of ignoring the social dimension of religion. To me it looks like Christians do hold each others accountable for their lifestyles, and intervene with each others personal lives in a way which I would personally find very intrusive. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong thing, if that's part of their religion, but as an individualist, idea of ending up in such position really scares me.

To summarize: I think you pretty well found out what I don't get about Christianity, and it's that paradox of "just about God" vs "being part of social-religious community and fitting into it's standards". I will give this some thinking. Maybe I will be enlightened!
 
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grandvizier1006

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Sorry if I confused you. :/

I'm an introvert and have difficulty with social interaction (Asperger's thing) so for me the social aspects of religion mean very little. It didn't occur to me that to you it might mean a lot more. To me personally it didn't. Just like how with high school I certainly had some acquaintances, but I think I spent a whole lot more time alone, brooding--a negative aspect of the Asperger's experience, but by God's grace I don't feel so lonely anymore :clap:.

But I really would suggest to make it ultimately a personal decision. I will say that that is sort of a "Western"/American cultural manner of looking at one's faith. I don't know if Finland counts as a "Western" nation, so I take it that maybe community is somewhat more valued over there?

The paradox comes from the fact that non-Western cultures emphasis the needs of groups as opposed to individuals, whereas we in the West have unintentionally sort of forgotten that. But for me that's good, since if my faith was based on my experiences with a group of believers entirely than I don't think I would have it at all. While yes, church groups are important, I still stand by what I say in that it ultimately boils down to a personal decision. :)
 
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JackofSpades

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I will say that that is sort of a "Western"/American cultural manner of looking at one's faith. I don't know if Finland counts as a "Western" nation, so I take it that maybe community is somewhat more valued over there?


I'm under impression that Finland is Western country in cultural sense, but I can't tell if community is more valued here or there, because I've never been in US. Anyways, this is getting a bit OT, so if you want to discuss our cultural differencies, feel free to ask in my AMA.


The paradox comes from the fact that non-Western cultures emphasis the needs of groups as opposed to individuals, whereas we in the West have unintentionally sort of forgotten that. But for me that's good, since if my faith was based on my experiences with a group of believers entirely than I don't think I would have it at all.


I'm not saying religion is entirely about community, or even mostly about it, but my point of view is that in religions with strong emphasis on community (such as Christianity in my understanding, with it's idea of "body of Christ"), the community is inseparable part of the religion. To reject the community is to reject part of the religion.
 
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grandvizier1006

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I'm under impression that Finland is Western country in cultural sense, but I can't tell if community is more valued here or there, because I've never been in US. Anyways, this is getting a bit OT, so if you want to discuss our cultural differencies, feel free to ask in my AMA.





I'm not saying religion is entirely about community, or even mostly about it, but my point of view is that in religions with strong emphasis on community (such as Christianity in my understanding, with it's idea of "body of Christ"), the community is inseparable part of the religion. To reject the community is to reject part of the religion.

True, but what I'm saying is that I don't think it's a good idea for you to decide which religion you want based primarily on the atmosphere the community provides. There are plenty of factors, like doctrine, how well said doctrine is explained to newcomers (which I'll admit I'm no good at, I don't know how to really explain Christianity to someone who is about as familiar with it as I am with Buddhism), how well the group responds to criticism, etc. And that's all in addition to individualistic matters like whether you personally or willing to really "get into this".

Although I will say that I might be a bit of a biased source, since I was able to accept the religion without its community--not because I was ostracized, but because of difficulties with social interaction. The churches I went to were a reasonably good mix of worship and social club, which I always assumed was just sort of an American, Southeast US thing. I assumed churches in Europe were too small to have additional social activities like that.

For example, the churches I went to had, in addition to a regular service, Sunday school classes for every age group, annual picnics/cookouts, dinner that consisted of whatever the congregation collectively knew how to cook, Wednesday evening services that leaned more towards social stuff than worship, etc. I did very little of that since I didn't go to a church to find a community or make friends. I came to learn about God and apply the Bible to my life. Is this "wrong" or "right"? It depends on who you ask. My parents had no problem with it, even though they felt differently. So yes, while for most people religion is a lot about community, for me it's sort of been different. I intend to change that, eventually, but for right now CF has been a very good Christian community :)

What exactly are you looking for by joining a religion such as Christianity, exactly? Community, identity, a fixed moral compass, or both? I think I'd be able to explain this better if I knew exactly what you were looking for.

I also want to add that since I think you said you're most familiar with Lutheranism, I'm not, unfortunately. Those sorts of churches tend to be in the Mid-western US. Where I live your only choices are literally Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and maybe a conservative version of Episcopal/Anglican. And my family literally chose for me! :D
 
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JackofSpades

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I assumed churches in Europe were too small to have additional social activities like that.


Europe has huge state churches which have more money than they can count for all sorts of activities, so that's hardly the problem. Imagine US church with 290 million members and everyone of those members paying mandatory tax to the church and you get some idea. I think biggest difference between European and American Christianity is the presence of state churches in Europe. Compared to what they used to be, they have lost their teeth and are in decline, but they are still there for many decades to come and are quite influental institutions because of their sheer size.

It's a complex topic so I won't even try to explain it in full detail, but if you want to study European Christianity and religion generally, concept of state church is first thing to look into, because it's so typical for European nations for historical reasons.


What exactly are you looking for by joining a religion such as Christianity, exactly? Community, identity, a fixed moral compass, or both? I think I'd be able to explain this better if I knew exactly what you were looking for.


I will answer to that a bit later in my AMA:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7857971/
 
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grandvizier1006

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Oh, yes...state churches. I'll admit an American like myself takes for granted the whole "separation of church and state" thing. But since Europe is relatively secular now, it seems like there's no harm in having them stay that way. Are the churches afraid that if they privatized they would disappear, or does it not work that way?
 
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JackofSpades

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Are the churches afraid that if they privatized they would disappear, or does it not work that way?


They are of course doing everything in their power to stay as popular and influental as they are, but people are leaving them slowly. It's just long process which is going to take decades before they reduce to the level of independent churches.
 
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