Religious identity

[JackofSpades]

My favorite topic, religious identity, here we go again.

For some people, this is simple: They believe dogmas of Christianity, so they're Christian, or they don't believe in any gods, so they can call themselves atheists. But some of us end up somewhere in no-mans land where no label seems to fit.

I've came across pretty interesting mixes: Christians who don't believe in Jesus and atheists who worship gods and so on. Sometimes I get feeling that alot of people don't really care about how much sense their identity makes for others.


- Is finding religious identity important? Should we just believe and practise what we think is right, and not worry about what we should call it?

- If somebody understands particular religion, like Christianity, in very unique manner, is it okay to redefine what "Christianity" means, or would it be better to find some other name for their religion?

- Does identifying with religion or world view come with obligation to fit in it?

- Have you ever struggled with your religious identity? How did it turn out? Want to share your story?

- Your advice for people who are in religious identity crisis?

 

[TheGirlOnFire]

- Is finding religious identity important? Should we just believe and practise what we think is right, and not worry about what we should call it?

I think we all like to put labels on it, then we can join or become apart of that group, it what humans do, it would be really lonely listening to just yourself

- If somebody understands particular religion, like Christianity, in very unique manner, is it okay to redefine what "Christianity" means, or would it be better to find some other name for their religion?

Main point for me is you can't be christian if you don't believe jesus died for our sins and in one god, everything else well i feel that's up for debate.....

- Does identifying with religion or world view come with obligation to fit in it?

Not fit in but become apart of fellowship a community, do you know they did a study/research on why japanese people live so long and it's do with their community, how knit tight they are, really interesting.

- Have you ever struggled with your religious identity? How did it turn out? Want to share your story?

Am still struggling with my religious identity within christainty, were do i go i don't know. I was brought up a catholic, I found God via a neocharismatic apostolic network of evangelical, charismatic church.... Phew i was still floating around being a christian were did i fit in, i don't feel i actually belong, we have a few churches near me but they are all Church of Scotland and the Catholic in me feels actually guilty about even going to those churches, i remember one time i was about 10 me and my friend went to one we lasted 5 mins in their we got scared and ran out..... I go a church at the moment and well the teaching is great, fellowship isn't so much it just seems to be about building more churches/getting more people to christ.. which is great and all but i don't it doesn't feel like home... so i don't know where i fit in, am i still a catholic (But i disagree with a few things) Am i evangelical or charismatic am i even Church of Scotland.... God only knows... it is actually lonely without fellowship

- Your advice for people who are in religious identity crisis?

None as yet

 

[Bananagator]

1. Religious Identity - On one hand, I think believing what you think is right is all we really can do. There are so many religions, and divides within each of them, that it's pretty overwhelming.
I find myself increasingly frustrated with the divisions within Christianity. One group interprets a part of the Bible one way; another group will interpret it a completely different way. How are we to know what is right without just going with what we think?


2. Redefining/naming - I don't think we need to redefine or rename anything per say. I'm going to stick with Christianity as an example because that's what I know. Christianity, by its definition, is following the teachings of Jesus Christ. So if someone believes in Jesus and follow what he said, they are a Christian. The problem is that over the years, others have added to this ideology so now it's a big conglomerate of how other people believe Christians should live. Of course, these denominations do have separate names, so perhaps "renaming" is something that's already taken place.

3. Fitting in - I guess identifying with a certain view makes you obligated to fit in, by human standards. If you're in a like-minded group and you don't really fit in with everyone else, they generally look down on you. This goes for every group

4. My Experience - Lately, I've been struggling all the time. I was born and raised Catholic and I still stick to that. But there are things about Catholicism I severely disagree with. The problem is, there are things about the other denominations I disagree with more, so conversion's out of the question.
Lately I've felt like I don't know where I stand. I believe in God, but is my idea of God correct? Heck, some of the most distressing reasons for my struggle haven't stemmed from my study of science, but from listening to other Christians.

5. Advice - I probably shouldn't be giving anyone advice on how to find themselves

 

[CrusaderKing]

- Is finding religious identity important? Should we just believe and practise what we think is right, and not worry about what we should call it?

Religion by its nature is absolutist. If going by that mentality, then it would be akin to calling a cat a dog and trying to pass that claim off as valid. However, if you go by a relativistic or nihilistic approach, then you can redefine it however you choose. Such an approach can lead to an intellectual crisis.

- If somebody understands particular religion, like Christianity, in very unique manner, is it okay to redefine what "Christianity" means, or would it be better to find some other name for their religion?

I would say this person has already done that in this case.

- Does identifying with religion or world view come with obligation to fit in it?

It depends on the level at which you choose to participate. And what does fitting in actually mean? Does it mean conforming to the orthodox viewpoint of the religion itself or conforming to the norms as practiced by the local community?

- Have you ever struggled with your religious identity? How did it turn out? Want to share your story?

Everyone has at some point. I left Catholicism since I could no longer agree with it.

- Your advice for people who are in religious identity crisis?

I would say don't run from an identity crisis. It is an opportunity to grow.

 

[Bobthemotorcycle]

.

 

[JackofSpades]

Religion by its nature is absolutist. If going by that mentality, then it would be akin to calling a cat a dog and trying to pass that claim off as valid. However, if you go by a relativistic or nihilistic approach, then you can redefine it however you choose. Such an approach can lead to an intellectual crisis.

I personally find extreme absolutism leading to more contradictories than relativism. There are very reasonable intellectual constructions for relativism.

Since dog can't suddenly convert and become cat - as is possible with religions - and vice versa, the analogy needs a bit more imagination. Cat and dog would work as an example if we imagine that they could grow body parts as they please; like take a dog which would grow similar tail and ears as cat, and would start to sound like a cat.

After such changes, it would become much more difficult to define is it a cat or a dog. And if such mutations were very common and various in nature, absolutist lines we would draw between the species would be likely rather artificial, just based on random agreement.

I think in such situation, having more flexible approach to what "cat" and "dog" means, would be more reasonable than sticking to dualistic "100% cat or 100% dog" - approach.

 

[JackofSpades]

Am still struggling with my religious identity within christainty, were do i go i don't know. I was brought up a catholic, I found God via a neocharismatic apostolic network of evangelical, charismatic church....

It's interesting that you've been in neocharismatic circles. I happen to have some neocharismatic background too. I was involved with neocharismatic revival movement when I was 19-20, it was part of the same movement as Toronto stuff but since pretty much everything here is influenced by Lutheranism, that was too. I think my interest with mysticism started during that time.

 

[JackofSpades]

Catholics have dogma but in the United States the Catholic denomination is very small and most here are protestants which have very few rules other than to love one another as God loves us.

In Europe I since that you guys have a completely different experience with "The Church " and you believe it consist of many rules where in the States we believe it provides for us many freedoms as God does not want more burdens put on our backs but He wants us to be free.

That doesn't sound like Europe I know, and I happen to live there. Maybe you are mixing Europe up with North Korea?

For the record: My country has proportionally 100 times less Catholics than US does: 0,2% of population are Catholics in Finland while 22% are in US.

 

[Sketcher]

- Is finding religious identity important?

Yes.

Should we just believe and practise what we think is right, and not worry about what we should call it?

If somebody understands particular religion, like Christianity, in very unique manner, is it okay to redefine what "Christianity" means, or would it be better to find some other name for their religion?

Does identifying with religion or world view come with obligation to fit in it?

We shouldn't mislabel ourselves. Claiming any label without respect to how it is defined is misleading to ourselves, and others. Christianity is defined by what is given in Scripture, and interpreted in accordance with the early creeds. If someone's personal faith contradicts the early creeds, that person has a responsibility to find another name for it (or convert). It's like an "on-fire" Christian claiming not to be religious*; it is incredibly misleading. If someone is going to claim a faith, that person needs to live according to that faith in an increasing manner. If for some reason this person were to not want to believe and live according to that faith's tenants at all, then he or she should either find a new faith that is closer, or at least not identify with the faith that he or she has so little to do with.

* Christians who say they are not "religious" but have a "relationship with God" rely on a false and ugly definition of religion, where "religion" always constitutes a works-based system to appease God. If that were what "religion" truly meant, they would be correct, but that is not how Paul and James used the term in the New Testament. And those in the world whom these Christians are trying to save will find out that their picture of being "non-religious" requires coming to church, praying, submitting to God's will, and conforming to how the Bible and the church say we need to live. If I were a non-believer and a believer claiming not to be religious gave me that shtick, I would think him no more honest than a sleazy salesman.

Have you ever struggled with your religious identity? How did it turn out? Want to share your story?

Not in the sense that you're likely getting at. I thought I had flunked out of Christianity once, that rocked me to my very core, but God brought me back from that, and he made me strong and secure in my faith.

- Your advice for people who are in religious identity crisis?

Find out what a faith is really about before passing a judgment on it. That is going to mean reading some books by learned adherents.

 

[JackofSpades]

If I were a non-believer and a believer claiming not to be religious gave me that shtick, I would think him no more honest than a sleazy salesman.

It sounds rather Orwellian indeed.

 

[Inkfingers]

- Is finding religious identity important? Should we just believe and practise what we think is right, and not worry about what we should call it?

Life is a community. It is foolish and egotistic to think ourselves able to do everything without the help of others - and that includes comprehending things. So it is important to get names right, as words are how we communicate ideas.

- If somebody understands particular religion, like Christianity, in very unique manner, is it okay to redefine what "Christianity" means, or would it be better to find some other name for their religion?

No. When words become protean it becomes impossible to communicate meaning...which aids confusion not comprehension.

- Does identifying with religion or world view come with obligation to fit in it?

Yes, but not blindly so. God gives us a mind to use.

- Have you ever struggled with your religious identity? How did it turn out? Want to share your story?

Of course. I don't know of any religious person who has not done so.

How did it turn out? It didn't "turn out". It still is "turning out".

- Your advice for people who are in religious identity crisis?

Don't panic, God knows what he's doing.

And if you cannot go even with that....then don't panic, because strong emotion clouds reason and it is through reason that we see truth.

 

[JackofSpades]

And if you cannot go even with that....then don't panic, because strong emotion clouds reason and it is through reason that we see truth.

I know this necessarily isn't what you're saying, but I'd like to mention something about having emotions:

I think being honest with ones feelings is just as important as being honest with ones logic. Our feelings are part of what makes us humans, just as our intellect is. Our feelings are capable of creating personal hell or paradise inside our heads, so they're not to be ignored. If something feels very good or very bad, it usually does so for a good reason. I'd take it as far as to state that because healthy humans have feelings, any system that completly ignores human feelings, or suggests that it doesn't matter at all if peoples feelings get hurt, is inhumane.

 

[Inkfingers]

I'd take it as far as to state that because healthy humans have feelings, any system that completly ignores human feelings, or suggests that it doesn't matter at all if peoples feelings get hurt, is inhumane.

You will notice, I hope, that I said Strong feeling clouds reason. Not just any feeling. Emotions are part of who we are, but emotions in no way represent reality (I can give you a drug that makes you feel like everyone in the room loves you....but it will be a complete illusion). It is through reason that we tell truth from untruth; emotions are no reliable source for determining such.

Or as the Bible puts it; "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

The heart is a fickle and superficial thing. Building on it is building on sand. It has its place, but that place is servant and not master.

 

[TheGirlOnFire]

It's interesting that you've been in neocharismatic circles. I happen to have some neocharismatic background too. I was involved with neocharismatic revival movement when I was 19-20, it was part of the same movement as Toronto stuff but since pretty much everything here is influenced by Lutheranism, that was too. I think my interest with mysticism started during that time.

Yes one of the ladies who helped me out a bit did the Toronto stuff though she did say some of it was a bit whack.

The church i went to was part of the new froniters, i loved the pastor and the people very friendly, had loads of stuff on even for the community like the elderly, parenting, the opened up a youth cafe, they also didn't ask for collection during the service which i thought was really good and their alpha was amazing they do it every week now, they served booze ha and a lovely meal with a desert, they got people in to speak about how they found God and then did the program themselves no DVD.

 

[JackofSpades]

Emotions are part of who we are, but emotions in no way represent reality (I can give you a drug that makes you feel like everyone in the room loves you....but it will be a complete illusion). It is through reason that we tell truth from untruth; emotions are no reliable source for determining such.

Aswell it's possible to brainwash your logic to resonate unconsciously with claims that are totally false without your consciousness ever being aware of this. Our logic doesn't exist in vacuum, neutral to social etc. things. It's connected to everything else in us and it can be manipulated aswell. It's just bit more difficult.

Like, have you ever noticed how academics, supposedly objective people, most often end up thinking same way as school of thought they are most familiar with in their circles, does? It's no coincidence. I don't believe humans are even capable of being absolutely objective, escpesially in matters that include any personal interest. And I'm not exception myself.

Emotions alone are missleading of course, but in order to stay humane, they must be taken into account. That is, if staying humane is considered to be important thing of course.

 

[Inkfingers]

Aswell it's possible to brainwash your logic to resonate unconsciously with claims that are totally false without your consciousness ever being aware of this.

Actually, Brainwashing usually relies on emotive overload of the capacity for reason, but yes reason is by no means infallible.

It's just a LOT less fallible than our emotions are.

Like, have you ever noticed how academics, supposedly objective people, most often end up thinking same way as school of thought they are most familiar with in their circles, does?

Oh yes although that is usually through vanity or fear....

But as I said, reason is no absolute proof against being fooled. Its just a lot more effective than emotions are.

Its far easier to con someone using their emotions than their reason. That's why politicians and religious demagogues go for the emotions and not the reason.

 

[JackofSpades]

Yes one of the ladies who helped me out a bit did the Toronto stuff though she did say some of it was a bit whack.

I appreciated the craziness. Like people falling and laughing and interesting stuff happened, it was cool. And it wasn't just for the show, some people actually changed there. I never saw healings (dunno if they happened or not) but I saw some rather impressive transformations in peoples personalities, some happened almost instantaneously. They experienced something, and were changed. It was real spiritual stuff, left lasting impression for me.

*waves charismatic-flag*

 

[Messy]

I appreciated the craziness. Like people falling and laughing and interesting stuff happened, it was cool. And it wasn't just for the show, some people actually changed there. I never saw healings (dunno if they happened or not) but I saw some rather impressive transformations in peoples personalities, some happened almost instantaneously. They experienced something, and were changed. It was real spiritual stuff, left lasting impression for me.

*waves charismatic-flag*

I've been there 7 times or something. Loved it. Still watch Brownsville. I saw one man who came with a car with crutches and then during the service suddenly he was healed and I saw him walking back to the car normal. I looked in one man's mouth who had a golden tooth. I was emotionally healed there and my shoulder got healed when they came here. Good old times, sometimes I miss them. I remember the first meeting, I was so used to dry religion (sorry, don't know how else to call it, you must do this, you must do that, you must pray, we must win souls) and then she said: WHOAAA we had so much fun! I was like: Fun? What is this? But I got way more just in love with Jesus and I wanted to pray and spend time with Him, not that you have to. They said not all was good, dunno, what I saw and experienced was good.

 

[JackofSpades]

I've been there 7 times or something.

You went to Toronto?

I never went out of the country for charismatic meetings, all the stuff I was involved with happened here. The movement here was called "Nokia Revival", and it has gotten rather bad name since then, because of scandals.

btw "Nokia" in this case has nothing to do with cellphones, it refers to name of city which has same name than the company.

 

[TheGirlOnFire]

I appreciated the craziness. Like people falling and laughing and interesting stuff happened, it was cool. And it wasn't just for the show, some people actually changed there. I never saw healings (dunno if they happened or not) but I saw some rather impressive transformations in peoples personalities, some happened almost instantaneously. They experienced something, and were changed. It was real spiritual stuff, left lasting impression for me.

*waves charismatic-flag*

When i first went to the church, the young girl came up to me and was yeah god has told me all about you and started telling me all about myself and what i was suffering from at the time, she also spoke in tounges which i was slightly shocked over as i've never heard anyone do it before , i have to say i have transformed as a person and i do put it down to that.