Religious Debate

[crystal07281987]

.....無神論

 

[KTskater]

Rev. 20: 13-15

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyones name is not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Obviously the "lake of fire" is hell. The ones who have not accepted Christ do not have their name in the book of life. Therefore it is not nessasarlly "bad" people. You can be a great person. But if you have sined even once your not good enough for God. That's why you need Christ.

 

[AionOlam]

KTSkater said:

Obviously the "lake of fire" is hell. The ones who have not accepted Christ do not have their name in the book of life. Therefore it is not nessasarlly "bad" people. You can be a great person. But if you have sined even once your not good enough for God. That's why you need Christ.

I disagree. It is not obvious that the "Lake of Fire" is Hell. Death and Hades are destroyed in the lake (the second death) because there is nothing good in either. Those that have their part in the lake are being purged of the evil so that God can be all in all.

If death and the grave/Hades are destroyed, it means everyone now will have immortality.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Rev. 20: 13-15

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyones name is not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Obviously the "lake of fire" is hell. The ones who have not accepted Christ do not have their name in the book of life. Therefore it is not nessasarlly "bad" people. You can be a great person. But if you have sined even once your not good enough for God. That's why you need Christ.

Not quite, The KJV translates this as death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, so hell is clearly not the lake of fire. In fact hell is translated from sheol 31 times but sheol is also translated as grave 31 times and as pit 3 times, I could say that obiviously hell is a word meaning the grave. In the NT (kjv) we have Hades translated hell in every case but 1 (in memory serves) where it is translated grave, we have tarterus translated as hell, we have gehenna translated as hell.

Bottom line if there is any obivous conclusion from all this it could only mean that hell is the grave.

2 other obivous things pop up,

First since hell is sheol and that there is no thought, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in sheol those in hell[the grave] have no knowledge that they are even there, the OT likens death to sleep.

Second, since our KJV says hell will give up it's dead and then be cast into the lake of fire, those in hell will not remain there for eternity nor does hell last forever.

Something to think about.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I would like to have a religious debate for the simple fact that most Chrisitans believe that there is a hell where bad people go when they die. I have yet to find this in the bible. Where does it state that exactly?

i guess it depends on which bible you are reading the word hell occurs several times in the KJV but not at all in the world english bible which uses the original sheol, hades, taterus and gehenna instead.

It is said in the old testament that all who die go to sheol both the good and the bad sheol is translated as hell but less than 1/2 the time it occurs

 

[crystal07281987]

中國無神論

 

[Zaac]

I would like to have a religious debate for the simple fact that most Chrisitans believe that there is a hell where bad people go when they die. I have yet to find this in the bible. Where does it state that exactly?

Bad people? Those who do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will be cast into the lake of fire. And Jesus spoke of this hell more than anyone else in the Bible. Do you take Jesus to be a liar?

 

[Zaac]

First since hell is sheol and that there is no thought, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in sheol those in hell[the grave] have no knowledge that they are even there, the OT likens death to sleep.

Nice thought, but God's Word says different. 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' Luke 16:19-24

There is indeed agony in hell. And it continues when hell is destroyed and the evil doers are cast into the lake of fire.

Second, since our KJV says hell will give up it's dead and then be cast into the lake of fire, those in hell will not remain there for eternity nor does hell last forever.

Something to think about.

That is indeed true. Hell is destroyed. It is no longer needed at the second(final) judgment.Hell is destroyed because it is no longer needed.

 

[crystal07281987]

Bad people? Those who do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will be cast into the lake of fire. And Jesus spoke of this hell more than anyone else in the Bible. Do you take Jesus to be a liar?

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[Soul Searcher]

Nice thought, but God's Word says different. 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' Luke 16:19-24

Sorry to disappoint you but this is a parable, and you will notice that no where in the parable does it indicate the rich man was not a man of God nor that Lazerus was a man of God.

Although it does drop a few hints, such as the clothing the rich man was wearing, the fact that he called Abraham father in fact the rich man seems to be blessed by God, Lazerus on the other hand seems to be cursed by God, covered with sores and longing to eat food that fell from the rich mans table.
Notice also that the rich man is not complaining about his body being hot or burned but his tounge, now if he was really in a literal fire it would not be his tounge that would be burning.

There is indeed agony in hell. And it continues when hell is destroyed and the evil doers are cast into the lake of fire.

The OT tells us there is no knowledge in sheol[hell] so if there is agony in hell those who are there will have no knowledge of it

That is indeed true. Hell is destroyed. It is no longer needed at the second(final) judgment.Hell is destroyed because it is no longer needed.

Which clearly shows that hell is not a place of eternal torment because the people there have not yet been judged

The OT tells us that all the dead go to sheol [translated 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave, 3 times as pit] all the same word, all the same meaning. All the dead go there, the good, the bad, the ugly. They sleep and await the judgement, which I may point out is not always bad.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Bad people? Those who do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will be cast into the lake of fire. And Jesus spoke of this hell more than anyone else in the Bible. Do you take Jesus to be a liar?

Actually, Jesus never uttered the word hell at all, he did mention(according to the greek texts) Hades and Gehenna, Hades being the place where all dead go, including Jesus when he died, and Gehenna having two meanings, one literal which is where they burned the garbage and tossed exectued criminals dead bodies, and one figurative where it is believed denotes a place of future punishment,

 

[Soul Searcher]

This is what I have to tell people but they don't believe me. Exactly when you die you don't go to heaven or hell you are sleeping waiting for resurection. What I don't understand is how did we get the idea that when bad people die they go to hell. And as for the second death I have heard that it means that when you are resurected are you ready to accept Christ and if not you die again and you are sent to hell which is the lake of fire or be destroyed. Am I getting this right?

I think the idea comesfrom the mistranslation and inconsistent translation of the words, sheol in the old testament and hades in the new testament, coupled with a misunderstanding of the parable of Lazerus and the rich man and a misplaced coma in the statement Jesus made to the thief on the cross.

KJV Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee,Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Notice the location of the coma and the improper capitalization of the word today. This implies that the thief will be in paradise today.

But when written, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Now we have a statement that is consistent with the rest of the teaching of the bible, for upon death we go to sheol and sleep until judgement. Then the dead shall be raised and shall be judged.

Jesus himself said he did not know when this day would come, nor did any of the angels in heaven but only the father knows.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

[BIBLE]Matthew 5:22[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Matthew 5:29-30[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Matthew 18:9[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Mark 9:43-47[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Matthew 10:28[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Luke 12:5[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Matthew 23:33[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Luke 16:23[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Matthew 8:12[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Matthew 22:13[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Matthew 25:30[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Matthew 25:41[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Matthew 25:46[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]2 Peter 2:4[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Luke 23:43[/BIBLE]

The latter verse, in my opinion, does in fact mean that the theif will be in Paradise today. Note that it does not say 'heaven' but rather 'Paradise'. When Christ descended to hell, as the Apostles' Creed tells us He did, He went to the "limbo of the Fathers" or "Abraham's bosom" as it is also called. There He preached to the souls of the righteous who had died before He could atone for their sins by His Death on the Cross (e.g. Abraham, Ezekiel, Job). Since Saint Dismas (the Good Theif) was with Him, it was Paradise in the limbo of the Fathers since Jesus is God and Paradise is being with God, illuminated by His Presence.

Rob

 

[Soul Searcher]

The latter verse, in my opinion, does in fact mean that the theif will be in Paradise today. Note that it does not say 'heaven' but rather 'Paradise'. When Christ descended to hell, as the Apostles' Creed tells us He did, He went to the "limbo of the Fathers" or "Abraham's bosom" as it is also called. There He preached to the souls of the righteous who had died before He could atone for their sins by His Death on the Cross (e.g. Abraham, Ezekiel, Job). Since Saint Dismas (the Good Theif) was with Him, it was Paradise in the limbo of the Fathers since Jesus is God and Paradise is being with God, illuminated by His Presence.

Rob

First the idea of paradise in hades comes from Greek mythology in the form of the elysian fields, which is pure myth. all three, Jesus, and both thiefs went to sheol[hades/hell]

The OT tells us that the dead go to sheol[all of them], there is no paradise there, nor is it a place of torment. It is a place where the dead rest and wait.

Jesus did not come to preach to the righteous but to the sinners, The bible tells us he preached the good news to the dead, where do you get the idea that he preached only to the righteous?

 

[John812]

Im leaning towards the belief that the people whose names are not written in the book of life will be destroyed in the lake of fire spoken of in revelations, except a few beings whose sins deserve eternal torment, including the devil.

I don't think about it too much. Whatever God has planned for the people that won't be with God, that is what will happen. It should be enough for people to know that if one's name is not written in the book of life they won't be with God. Instead of fearing what will happen to us if our names are not written in the book of life, we should walk on the path of truth, love and righteousness - because that is the highest path and the only one God accepts - and it leads to eternal life

John 14:6, the words of God's Son,

I am the way and the truth and the life.


God Bless ya!

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Jesus did not come to preach to the righteous but to the sinners, The bible tells us he preached the good news to the dead, where do you get the idea that he preached only to the righteous?

I may be incorrect, but I believe that the teaching is that he descended to the limbo of the fathers (a part of hell) where the souls of the righteous dead were. The fact that it is here that Christ Jesus went tells me that He would have preached to the righteous since the righteous are the ones who were in the limbo of the fathers. Of course, they were not fully righteous until purified by the Death of Christ and justified by God's Grace.

I also don't see the point of Christ descending to preach to those who had already rejected God willingly and fully (i.e. the souls in hell) since they cannot be saved from hell once they have chosen it and gone there.

The Early Fathers of the Church believed in hell, quite clearly. Besides which it is utterly obvious from Scripture (much of which I have quoted above) that hell exists.

An article demonstrating again the proof of hell from Scripture.

Pax Christi Vobiscum,
Rob

 

[Soul Searcher]

I may be incorrect, but I believe that the teaching is that he descended to the limbo of the fathers (a part of hell) where the souls of the righteous dead were. The fact that it is here that Christ Jesus went tells me that He would have preached to the righteous since the righteous are the ones who were in the limbo of the fathers. Of course, they were not fully righteous until purified by the Death of Christ and justified by God's Grace.

You may be correct about the teaching, but these teachings come from men. As I pointed out in a earlier post one of the problems that cause errors in the teaching is the way sheol was translated in many of our bibles. In the KJV sheol occurs 65 times, 31 translated hell, 31 translated grave and 3 translated pit. This is improper translation and leads to errors in doctorine. In this translation whenever a person is not a person of God it is translated hell and when they are it is translated grave, but the original text says they all go to the same place.

Since the NT texts are in Greek the word used is hades which in at least one case is shown to be used exactly as sheol was in the OT. Now maybe the paradise and torment ideas came from Greek mythology maybe they evolved on thier own over time but it was never the teaching of the OT.

I also don't see the point of Christ descending to preach to those who had already rejected God willingly and fully (i.e. the souls in hell) since they cannot be saved from hell once they have chosen it and gone there.

How could they have possibly rejected christ, they did not know he existed. Not knowing is not rejecting it is ignorance, how could they ever accept him if they were not at least told of his existance and/or the offer.

Luke 5:32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The Early Fathers of the Church believed in hell, quite clearly. Besides which it is utterly obvious from Scripture (much of which I have quoted above) that hell exists.

Hell exists? In what form or manner?
Is it sheol[the place where all dead go]?
Is it hades[the place where all dead go]?
Is it tarterous[the place in hades that according to Greek mythology the wicked dead suffer torment]
Is it gehenna[the garbage dump, where garbage and the bodies executed criminals were burned]

Or perhaps you believe that it is the lake of fire [even though the bible never says so] Or the outter darkness, or the place where the worm dieth not?

Or, perhaps you realize that hell means grave. The bible tells us that when we die our spirit returns to God who gave it and our body returns to dust, this is true for the good and the bad and even so for the animals according to the OT.

The NT tells us that after death comes judgement, and tells us that the judgement of the dead will happen on the last day.

The last day has not yet arrived, and Jesus himself said he did not know when it would come, nor did the angels in heaven, but only the father. The bible tells us that those in sheol[hell/hades/grave] Are asleep and that they will be raised up on the last day[the day of the great white throne judgement]. Then shall every mans works be tried, by fire for what sort they are.

 

[Zaac]

Sorry to disappoint you but this is a parable, and you will notice that no where in the parable does it indicate the rich man was not a man of God nor that Lazerus was a man of God.

You didn't disappoint me. Notice that all of Jesus' other stories and parables were true to life. He doesn't use science-fiction scenarios in his stories.

And as the Holy Spirit continues to deliver the truth of God's Word, the rich man was in hell and Lazerus was in paradise.

9 Then his disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but to others I speakin parables, so that ‘looking they may not perceive, and listening they may not understand.’ Luk 8:9-10

What you think to just be a parable discounts the ability of the Holy Spirit to deliver the truth of why Jesus says what He says and why He says it the way He says.

Although it does drop a few hints, such as the clothing the rich man was wearing, the fact that he called Abraham father in fact the rich man seems to be blessed by God, Lazerus on the other hand seems to be cursed by God, covered with sores and longing to eat food that fell from the rich mans table.

Notice also that the rich man is not complaining about his body being hot or burned but his tounge, now if he was really in a literal fire it would not be his tounge that would be burning

The OT tells us there is no knowledge in sheol[hell] so if there is agony in hell those who are there will have no knowledge of it .

Are you discounting that he says ...23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. Luke 16:23-24

Furthermore, stop trying to explain what happens in the spirit based upon your fleshly reality.

Which clearly shows that hell is not a place of eternal torment because the people there have not yet been judged

They have too been judged. That's why they are in hell instead of God's presence. They have suffered the first death. The second is when they will stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment.

The OT tells us that all the dead go to sheol [translated 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave, 3 times as pit] all the same word, all the same meaning. All the dead go there, the good, the bad, the ugly. They sleep and await the judgement, which I may point out is not always bad.

I don't know about your Bible, but I have a promise from God that to be absent my body, is to be in His presence. Now you go on down to the grave. I'm planning on doing a Holy Ghost dance around God's throne.

 

[Zaac]

Actually, Jesus never uttered the word hell at all, he did mention(according to the greek texts) Hades and Gehenna, Hades being the place where all dead go, including Jesus when he died, and Gehenna having two meanings, one literal which is where they burned the garbage and tossed exectued criminals dead bodies, and one figurative where it is believed denotes a place of future punishment,

Again, you're speaking with the knowledge of the flesh and what scholars have presumed to be. Go before the Throne of Glory and ask Jesus about Hell.

 

[Soul Searcher]

You didn't disappoint me. Notice that all of Jesus' other stories and parables were true to life. He doesn't use science-fiction scenarios in his stories.

You are correct it is not fiction, but it does not mean exactly what it says, if it did it would not be a parable, the rich man is not a single indivual nor is Lazerus. They are symbols for something else just like all the other parables Jesus used. I could go into detail on what I think this really means or I can provide you with a link that explains it rather well if you like.

What you think to just be a parable discounts the ability of the Holy Spirit to deliver the truth of why Jesus says what He says and why He says it the way He says.

I think you are missunderstanding something here. I do not think it to be just a parable. I know that it is a parable, I also know that it was used to tell a greater truth and does not mean exactly what it says anymore than the wheat and the tares, the wedding dinner, the vineyard or any other parable told by Jesus. The rich man symbolizes a whole group of people, Lazerus[which means helpless] symbolizes another group of people, I think this parable is talking about the same groups as is the wedding dinner parable.

Are you discounting that he says ...23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. Luke 16:23-24

Again 1:it is a parable[menaing it does not mean exactly what it says] and 2 the proper word is not hell it is hades or sheol. Both figures in the parable are dead, meaning they are both in sheol/hades or if you prefer hell.

Furthermore, stop trying to explain what happens in the spirit based upon your fleshly reality.

I am merely repeating what the bible says about the destination of the spirit. The bible tells us that the spirit returns to God who gave it. Do you disagree with the verse that says this?

They have too been judged. That's why they are in hell instead of God's presence. They have suffered the first death. The second is when they will stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment.

I think that is incorrect, do you have a scripture that says god judges the same people twice?

I don't know about your Bible, but I have a promise from God that to be absent my body, is to be in His presence. Now you go on down to the grave. I'm planning on doing a Holy Ghost dance around God's throne.

Perhaps you do not understand what I have been saying, when you are absent your body e.g. Your spirit has gone, It does go to God, but judgement yet awaits, then will come the new body and the soul will awaken from it's sleep.

Now, there may be things you have read that indicate something different, or you may have a different way of interputing these verses but this whole thing about the spirit and sleep is directly from the bible and when translated properly the word hell does not exist.