Religion as a tool to gain spiritual connection

[awitch]

So Bert Erhman is not an atheist historian who accepts the accuracy of the Bible. That other historians accept the accuracy of the bible.

No idea who Bert Erhamn is or what credentials he has. Lacking a belief in god has nothing to do with the ability to establish the historical accuracy of a book. Other historians might agree that the Bible makes references to actual people and places but that in no way proves any of the supernatural events actually took place. Some historians may be Christians, so of course they believe it, but that doesn't make it true. Who are the historians you're referring to, specifically? Let's identify their credentials, biases, and compare them to the consensus of the historical community.

Thank you for pointing that out. I would argue that as the Bible is demonstrable accuracy on points of history and fact concerning the time and places in the new testament then the spiritual remarks and statements are equally likely to be accurate.

That is not logically sound. There is no reason to accept any spiritual or supernatural claims without evidence and references to actual people and places does nothing to demonstrate those claims are true.
ANY religious document that references actual places and people would also be true then.

Look up sir William Michael Ramsay archeologist who life time of digging up the near East brought him to the conclusion that Luke was always accurate.

So what?

May I suggest that you take a fresh look at the evidence.

Sure. Present it to us to review.

The normal literary process is to assume documents are true untill shown not to be so.

What fool told you that?

 

[dlamberth]

Please pay them out, let us compare the factual evidence for Jesus with the factual evidence for your ' other spiritual options'?

It feels like your changing the goal post from one thing to another. There's seems to be factual evidence that a person named Jesus had religious followers. There's not so much factual evidence for anything beyond that. Which opens the door for other spiritual options and experiences that are not limited to the two options given.

 

[Albion]

I've been reading a lot of NDE accounts lately and there is a lot of people who have had this experience that then decide to leave their respective religions. They say it doesn't matter what religion you belong to as long as you feel a spiritual connection by being a part of that religion. And once they realised this they no longer needed organised religion to feel that connection.

That religion is used by humans as a tool to gain a spiritual connection to God/source/mother nature/the light/great spirit/whatever your word is for that. Sort of like 'it doesn't matter what you have faith in as long as you have faith'.

I found it really interesting and would love to hear your opinions on this line of thought?

I think that the change you are referring to (which I have also read about) is unfortunate, but I also can appreciate how people who have had such an experience feel profoundly changed and now see God in a more personal way, whether or not the experience was genuine or just some mental aberration.

 

[Tolworth John]

What fool told you that

As you know none of the educated people who have investigated the facts about Christianity and don't even know the standard way to start assessing evidence. There is little point talking to you.

 

[Tolworth John]

It feels like your changing the goal post from one thing to another. There's seems to be factual evidence that a person named Jesus had religious followers. There's not so much factual evidence for anything beyond that. Which opens the door for other spiritual options and experiences that are not limited to the two options given.

No I am keeping things to be based on evidence. There are plenty of historians and historians who are not practising Christians who accept the accuracy of a number of N T books. These books do talk about the resurrection of Jesus.
If you maintain it did not happen, please present your evidence?
Equally if you say other ' spiritual' experiences have better evidence, let's see it?

 

[dlamberth]

No I am keeping things to be based on evidence. There are plenty of historians and historians who are not practising Christians who accept the accuracy of a number of N T books. These books do talk about the resurrection of Jesus.
If you maintain it did not happen, please present your evidence?
Equally if you say other ' spiritual' experiences have better evidence, let's see it?

What I first responded to was this from you:

Jesus said he is the Truth, so either he is in which case Christianity is true, or he is a liar and Christianity is false.

What I suggested is that there are other options out there. Are they better spiritual experiences? It all depends upon one's own place of spiritual growth. In that way it's a personal matter. But the thing is, there are other options out side of the two you offered.

There is no historical account of the resurrection of Jesus. All we have on record is that a group of Jews followed a person named Jesus. We also have on record that those early followers of Jesus had a mix of beliefs about the matter.

 

[awitch]

As you know none of the educated people who have investigated the facts about Christianity and don't even know the standard way to start assessing evidence. There is little point talking to you.

Perhaps you can introduce me to those people and detail for the forum what those specific standards are.

 

[dlamberth]

As you know none of the educated people who have investigated the facts about Christianity and don't even know the standard way to start assessing evidence. There is little point talking to you.

You have me wondering what your standard way to assess evidence of things like the resurrection of Jesus might be? The bar I have would depend upon extra-Biblical evidence.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I've been reading a lot of NDE accounts lately and there is a lot of people who have had this experience that then decide to leave their respective religions. They say it doesn't matter what religion you belong to as long as you feel a spiritual connection by being a part of that religion. And once they realised this they no longer needed organised religion to feel that connection.

That religion is used by humans as a tool to gain a spiritual connection to God/source/mother nature/the light/great spirit/whatever your word is for that. Sort of like 'it doesn't matter what you have faith in as long as you have faith'.

I found it really interesting and would love to hear your opinions on this line of thought?

I think NDEs are one gateway point to an alternate experince where ones own cognative (the process of thinking) and psychological contructs get shattered to a degree. From that foundation religion can often be seen as an unnecessary distraction in a persons wordview/perspective. The connection felt/experienced has a tangable effect in how their faith is formed and what they have faith in. These things can differ greatly from person to person.

 

[AV1611VET]

I found it really interesting and would love to hear your opinions on this line of thought?

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[AV1611VET]

Science is where you find the closest thing to truth.

That's like saying 1+1=1 is the closest answer to the right one (which is 2).

It may be the closest, but it's still wrong.

Reminds me of a joke I once heard:

Mom: How did school go, son?
Johnny: Great! I got credit for answering a tough question in science class!
Mom: What was it?
Johnny: Teacher asked how many legs a zebra had, and I said three.
Mom: A zebra has four legs. How is it you got credit for that?
Johnny: I came the closest!

 

[Tolworth John]

You have me wondering what your standard way to assess evidence of things like the resurrection of Jesus might be? The bar I have would depend upon extra-Biblical evidence.

Then start reading them there are plenty of sites that provide information about these ancient authors who mention Jesus, try:-
Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible? | Cold Case Christianity

 

[dlamberth]

Then start reading them there are plenty of sites that provide information about these ancient authors who mention Jesus, try:-
Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible? | Cold Case Christianity

As I wrote, it's extra-Biblical evidence of things like his resurrection that I find wanting.

 

[Tolworth John]

As I wrote, it's extra-Biblical evidence of things like his resurrection that I find wanting.

The problem with evidence is that one has to deal with the evidence one has, not the evidence one wishes one had.
You have well educated Christians and atheists who accept the accuracy of much of the new new testa.
They accept that Jesus lived, died, was hurried and that his tomb was empty.
They accept that the disciples believed they had met a risen Jesus.

You don't accept this facts that atheist confessors of history accept.
Please demonstrat just what it is that these professors have missed.

 

[dlamberth]

The problem with evidence is that one has to deal with the evidence one has, not the evidence one wishes one had.
You have well educated Christians and atheists who accept the accuracy of much of the new new testa.
They accept that Jesus lived, died, was hurried and that his tomb was empty.
They accept that the disciples believed they had met a risen Jesus.

You don't accept this facts that atheist confessors of history accept.
Please demonstrate just what it is that these professors have missed.

Show me the facts that atheist confessors have of the resurrection and maybe we have something. All I've seen, and even in the link you posted is that some of the followers of Jesus believed in the resurrection. But that was not a wildly held belief among those first followers of Jesus. There's simply no extra-Biblical evidence of said resurrection.

 

[Tolworth John]

Show me the facts that atheist confessors have of the resurrection and maybe we have something. All I've seen, and even in the link you posted is that some of the followers of Jesus believed in the resurrection. But that was not a wildly held belief among those first followers of Jesus. There's simply no extra-Biblical evidence of said resurrection.

Read a quote of the Atheist historian Bart Rehman in this link
Winteryknight .com/2020/09/02
Where he says he agrees on what the new testament says, accept for a few dozen places.

Or there is a debate on the resurrection at winteryknight.com/2020/10/04.

Or you can start looking at William lane craigs debates on YouTube

 

[Robban]

I've been reading a lot of NDE accounts lately and there is a lot of people who have had this experience that then decide to leave their respective religions. They say it doesn't matter what religion you belong to as long as you feel a spiritual connection by being a part of that religion. And once they realised this they no longer needed organised religion to feel that connection.

That religion is used by humans as a tool to gain a spiritual connection to God/source/mother nature/the light/great spirit/whatever your word is for that. Sort of like 'it doesn't matter what you have faith in as long as you have faith'.

I found it really interesting and would love to hear your opinions on this line of thought?

Judaism has 613 connections already it can be seen as a rope with 613 strands which would be very strong.

Or a ladder with 613 rungs moving up the ladder can be slow though but as long as one is going up one is moving in the right direction.

Just as well one is not at the top of the ladder,
the only direction to move would be downwards,
not a good direction to be moving in.

But talking of connection, we all have to repent,

Which means "return" return to the source of the soul and make a connection.

Even using the internet one has to make a connection.

How much more so when connecting to the giver of all things.

 

[Rachel20]

Sort of like 'it doesn't matter what you have faith in as long as you have faith'.

I found it really interesting and would love to hear your opinions on this line of thought?

It might blend well with other religions, but it directly opposes Christianity (Acts 4:12, John 10:1)

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

 

[Rachel20]

Science is where you find the closest thing to truth.

Popper is rolling in his grave

 

[Zoness]

That religion is used by humans as a tool to gain a spiritual connection to God/source/mother nature/the light/great spirit/whatever your word is for that. Sort of like 'it doesn't matter what you have faith in as long as you have faith'.

People aren't totally interested in giving up religion entirely but they've had plenty of time to see what institutionalized religion does. It's more desirable to keep the aesthetic, identity and some vague ethics from it rather than a deep adherence to it. Even among the more religious people I know, they deride the zealous types for being too hostile and extreme. Nobody really wants to follow religion deeply, except the very most dedicated, and honestly I think that's fine. We don't need more zealots.