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Religion and Ambiguous Language

Dre Khipov

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One of the most irritating things that I find discussing the religious topics with other people is the fact that a lot of religious concepts are wrapped up in a rather ambiguous language that people fill with their own concepts and ideas. Then, this language is thrown around as though everyone is on the same page, but when asked to deconstruct the meaning, people tend to struggle a bit.

When you understand the problem, it's sort of like pointing out a flaw in your favorite movie that you then notice in every scene and it spoils it for you :), but for any religion to move on... that flaw has to be recognized and addressed.

1) Our modern lives demand precise language for accurate meaning.

In the past, the ambiguity was the cornerstone of wisdom. You'd see enigmatic personalities left and right, and the more ambiguous they were, the more wisdom they seemed to hold.

But, eventually, you have a large group of followers that parrot metaphorical concepts that are claimed to be understood, but end up being void of meaning. Modern science actually isn't immune to this either.

Some religious examples that I find most irritating:

God is love - What does that mean? It seems like a very imprecise way to define God. It's sort of like saying "My dad is freedom". It doesn't make much sense if one doesn't unpack the meaning.

God's love in our hearts - same thing. It seems that these are appealing to hopeless romantics in people rather than actually convey meaning.

Sinful Nature - That's a whopper of enigmatic concepts.

Blessing - It seems like a spiritual-sounding placeholder that means "anything good happened to me or other people"



I could go on and on with these, but the point being... one of the ways to yank people out of false idealism is to have them try to explain their beliefs to themselves. I think that there is reasonable faith these days, but it gets drowned and overcrowded and mixed with a lot of meaningless nonsense that tends to all be packaged as "religion".

Thus, I think that the best way to deal with the issue is to call out people on the metaphors they are using.

I generally say "If you didn't have this phrase or word, what other combination of words would you use to say the same thing? I'm trying to understand what you mean here exactly" There's a lot of nonsense that gets attached to emotional semantics, and it leaches off these emotional labels and metaphors.
 

juvenissun

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One of the most irritating things that I find discussing the religious topics with other people is the fact that a lot of religious concepts are wrapped up in a rather ambiguous language that people fill with their own concepts and ideas. Then, this language is thrown around as though everyone is on the same page, but when asked to deconstruct the meaning, people tend to struggle a bit.

Of course, of course. It SHOULD be so.

We are talking about Theology. Just like some people talked about Chemistry.

People in a special field of study tend to use professional jargons that are usually confusing to laymen.
And when a layman started to pickup and used the same professional jargon without understanding, communication disasters happened.

However, because the ambiguity, it provides a lot rooms for conversations in order to clear things up. So, laymen could have some chances to learn something new.

If one is humble in conversation, the ambiguity can only be beneficial.
 
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Ana the Ist

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One of the most irritating things that I find discussing the religious topics with other people is the fact that a lot of religious concepts are wrapped up in a rather ambiguous language that people fill with their own concepts and ideas. Then, this language is thrown around as though everyone is on the same page, but when asked to deconstruct the meaning, people tend to struggle a bit.

When you understand the problem, it's sort of like pointing out a flaw in your favorite movie that you then notice in every scene and it spoils it for you :), but for any religion to move on... that flaw has to be recognized and addressed.

1) Our modern lives demand precise language for accurate meaning.

In the past, the ambiguity was the cornerstone of wisdom. You'd see enigmatic personalities left and right, and the more ambiguous they were, the more wisdom they seemed to hold.

But, eventually, you have a large group of followers that parrot metaphorical concepts that are claimed to be understood, but end up being void of meaning. Modern science actually isn't immune to this either.

Some religious examples that I find most irritating:

God is love - What does that mean? It seems like a very imprecise way to define God. It's sort of like saying "My dad is freedom". It doesn't make much sense if one doesn't unpack the meaning.

God's love in our hearts - same thing. It seems that these are appealing to hopeless romantics in people rather than actually convey meaning.

Sinful Nature - That's a whopper of enigmatic concepts.

Blessing - It seems like a spiritual-sounding placeholder that means "anything good happened to me or other people"



I could go on and on with these, but the point being... one of the ways to yank people out of false idealism is to have them try to explain their beliefs to themselves. I think that there is reasonable faith these days, but it gets drowned and overcrowded and mixed with a lot of meaningless nonsense that tends to all be packaged as "religion".

Thus, I think that the best way to deal with the issue is to call out people on the metaphors they are using.

I generally say "If you didn't have this phrase or word, what other combination of words would you use to say the same thing? I'm trying to understand what you mean here exactly" There's a lot of nonsense that gets attached to emotional semantics, and it leaches off these emotional labels and metaphors.


Some other examples could include...

"God"
"Perfect"

And my personal favorite...

"Timeless"

Timeless always appears to me as a term without any real conceptual background. I've never had one person who uses define it in a manner that tells me what it is....they only say what it isn't, which is entirely useless.

You're right though...many a discussion on this forum has stalled out entirely for want of understanding a term.
 
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talitha

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Well, for starters, "God is love" is taken directly from scripture but separated from context. People do this sometimes for a couple of reasons. Sometimes people do it because they either don't related to or don't understand the rest of the scripture that surrounds it, and they are picking and choosing. Sometimes the Holy Spirit actually speaks fragments of scripture to someone's spirit, and it conveys something to that person. Very well. But then it gets repeated so many times that what was originally conveyed is lost and all that's left is a fragment; we need to get back to the context - 1 John 4:7-9. That would be a good study, but we are hear to discuss ambiguous language.....

I agree that when people talk, they need to clarify the meaning of any jargon or ambiguous terms to include people who may not be conversant with those terms in the same way. If we never find ourselves needing to clarify, that means we have not ventured outside our own little bubble of likeminded Christians. How will we ever share the gospel in that way? How will we ever grow from what Christians outside our circle have come to know?
 
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JackRT

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A recent essay of John Spong's speaks directly to the questions raised in the OP:
The Bible is not the “word of God!” It never has been. No one who has ever read the Bible in its entirety could possibly defend that suggestion. This bizarre and irrational idea was rather imposed upon this ancient text long after its books had been written, collected and bound together as a single volume. In its original form, the Bible is a chronicle of the history of a particular tribe or people as they journeyed in time trying to make sense out of their life and of their God. Its pages are filled with mythic legends, memories, folk tales and the story telling tradition of the Middle East. It is a strange but real fact that many people in the Christian world, who still treasure the Bible’s words, have never heard these facts stated before in their churches.

All the authors of the books of the Bible made assumptions that were common to people living between 1000 BCE and 140 CE, which appear to be the dates during which the books of the Bible were written. Many, perhaps most, of those assumptions cannot be made by people living in the world of expanded knowledge available to us today. This makes understanding the Bible, or sometimes even treating its literal words with reverence, quite difficult.

If the Bible is not the word of God then what does one make of the creeds, adopted by the Christian Church, in the 4th century? How does one relate to the various doctrines and dogmas that grew out of the creeds to form what came to be called the “Faith of the Church?” All creeds and doctrinal beliefs were said to rest on the authority of the Bible. Claims were then made for these beliefs that the truth of God had been captured in these time-bound human forms. It was the same circular argument made earlier for the Bible being “the word of God.” Such a system may well have offered security, but it did not offer accuracy. Throughout history, these claims to possess the ultimate truth of God were defended with a vehemence, which normally reveals hysteria covering doubt and insecurity, far more than conviction. Those who challenged the claims of the Bible’s literal accuracy were called “heretics” and not a few of them were burned at the stake during a period in the 14th century called “the Inquisition.”

In the 16th century, the authority of the church could no longer hold the minds of men and women in positions of obedience, so a rigorous challenge to this religious system arose for the first time. It was called “the Reformation.” During this time, the peace and security of Europe were shattered. The unifying truth by which its people and its institutions had lived was broken. Ancient claims of authority were overturned. Wars were fought seeking to restore the old order. One thinks of the storm-tossed sinking at sea of the Armada from Catholic Spain in 1588 on its way to force Protestant England back under the authority of the Pope. One thinks of the Thirty Years’ War during which each side tried to force the other into either the old way of life or into the new way of life. It was a time of enormous upheaval.

All of these things being so, it is hard to recognize what is actually a fact, namely that the Reformation of the 16th century, as this movement was called, when reviewed in retrospect was not about the substance of the Christian story, nearly so much as it was about who had the authority to interpret this story. When the smoke of the Reformation’s struggle finally cleared away, to the surprise of many, both Protestants and Catholics still read the same Bible, still recited the same creeds, still worshiped in liturgies that, although different in emphasis, would still have been recognized on both sides of the Christian divide as similar. The Reformation of the 16th century thus ultimately gave us a change of form not a change of substance.

Following that Reformation, the years rolled on and human knowledge exploded, cracking assumption after assumption made in the pre-modern world. First, there was a Polish monk named Nicolaus Copernicus, whose studies shattered the image of the earth as the center of a three-tiered universe, which also assumed that God who dwelled just above the sky, always looking down, always recording in the book of life the good deeds and the misdeeds of each person. The promise of reward with God in heaven or punishment from God in hell after this life constituted the central linchpin of a well-ordered human society. When that pin was pulled the whole frame of reference in the medieval world began to shake. Galileo then built on Copernicus’ work, making it far too public to be ignored. So it was Galileo, not Copernicus, who was put on trial for his views. He was spared from the stake by what was surely a plea bargain. Galileo publicly renounced his own conclusions, agreed not to write about those things again and accepted house arrest for the balance of his days. Ultimately, however, people learned that truth, even inconvenient truth, cannot be repressed forever. In 1991, the Vatican issued a paper indicating that they now believed Galileo was correct. It was a surrender to reality, but not a very timely one. Although it was now a fact that both the Bible and the creeds made the now discredited, pre-Galileo assumptions, no one seemed eager to address the reality of their irrelevance. Galileo had destroyed God’s dwelling place in the universe above the sky, rendering God “homeless.” God’s reality immediately began to fade in human consciousness.

Isaac Newton followed Galileo by introducing us to what came to be called the “laws of nature,” according to which the world operated with mathematical precision. Our expanding universe turned out to be ordered, not capricious. The result of this discovery was that the arena in which God was believed to operate, with the supernatural powers of miracle and magic, began to shrink. Most of what we once thought that God did, like direct the weather patterns and cure the sick, we began to explain with no reference to God at all. Isaac Newton had curtailed God’s activity and in the process rendered God “unemployed.” Yet Christians continued to pray to God for divine intervention and to read the Bible’s stories of miracles as if they were literally true.

Next, Charles Darwin changed the way we understood human origins. He asserted that there was no original perfection from which human beings had fallen into what the church called “original sin.” That realization also immediately meant that the way Christians told the Christ story no longer made sense. One cannot be rescued from a fall that never happened, nor can one be restored to a status one has never possessed. The Christian story was visibly unraveling.

Then, Sigmund Freud came along to suggest that God might be little more than a parental authority figure projected into the sky and that the role God actually served was to keep human life in a perpetual state of child-like immaturity. This insight was followed by many other voices that forced our world to face a whole new way of thinking. One thinks of Louis Pasteur, Albert Einstein, Nils Bohr, and Stephen Hawking as examples. We began to understand that “eternal truth,” packaged in human words, no matter how ancient or how venerable, no longer appeared to be something that we possessed. Yet inside the Christian church during this revolutionary time in which human knowledge was literally exploding, the church continued to pretend that the Bible, the creeds, the doctrines and the dogmas of the Christian Church remained inviolate, unchallenged and unchanged. The result was that Christians were taught to develop a bifurcated mind in which the symbols of our faith story were no longer connected with the human experience.

Some people responded to this realization by closing their minds to new truth, even denying its existence. We call them fundamentalists and they come in both a Protestant and Catholic form. Other people, and increasingly this tended to be a generational thing, decided that the religious system of yesterday no longer spoke to them in any relevant way and so they began to walk away from the faith of their fathers and mothers in droves, to take up citizenship in what Harvard’s Harvey Cox called “the Secular City.” This was best symbolized to me when my daughter, Jaquelin, who owns a Ph.D. in Physics from Stanford University, said to me: “Dad, the questions the church spends its time answering are not questions we even ask anymore.” That was when I knew that the only hope for the continued life of the Christian faith was to launch a new Reformation, one that will deal with substantive not peripheral authority issues. The new Reformation must deal with every ancient formulary of the Christian tradition: the Bible, the creeds, the doctrines, the dogmas and the liturgy. Everything must be on the table for debate. Every sacred symbol must be opened to radically new possibilities. The “faith once delivered to the saints” must now be subjected to a radical revision. Can Christianity stand the shock of such an enterprise? That is not yet clear. What is clear, however, is that Christianity, unchallenged and unchanged, will not survive. The heart will not long worship what the mind rejects.

So this driving necessity lies before this generation of Christians. We are the ones who are called to rethink and to reformulate our basic understanding of God, of Christ and of all that seems to follow from those two things. I suspect this effort will not be appreciated by those who have not yet felt the jolting dislocation between the language of worship and the language of the 21st century. I suspect that many of those who might respond to and appreciate this initiative have already left involvement in the Christian faith. I do not know if they can be reached and encouraged to return. I only know that Christianity must change or die!
 
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JackRT

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If Christianity is stripped of its meaning, why be a Christian at all, Jack? Sheesh.

Perhaps the meaning is not at all like you have been taught and assume it to be? Sheesh indeed.
 
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katerinah1947

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One of the most irritating things that I find discussing the religious topics with other people is the fact that a lot of religious concepts are wrapped up in a rather ambiguous language that people fill with their own concepts and ideas. Then, this language is thrown around as though everyone is on the same page, but when asked to deconstruct the meaning, people tend to struggle a bit.

When you understand the problem, it's sort of like pointing out a flaw in your favorite movie that you then notice in every scene and it spoils it for you :), but for any religion to move on... that flaw has to be recognized and addressed.

1) Our modern lives demand precise language for accurate meaning.

In the past, the ambiguity was the cornerstone of wisdom. You'd see enigmatic personalities left and right, and the more ambiguous they were, the more wisdom they seemed to hold.

But, eventually, you have a large group of followers that parrot metaphorical concepts that are claimed to be understood, but end up being void of meaning. Modern science actually isn't immune to this either.

Some religious examples that I find most irritating:

God is love - What does that mean? It seems like a very imprecise way to define God. It's sort of like saying "My dad is freedom". It doesn't make much sense if one doesn't unpack the meaning.

God's love in our hearts - same thing. It seems that these are appealing to hopeless romantics in people rather than actually convey meaning.

Sinful Nature - That's a whopper of enigmatic concepts.

Blessing - It seems like a spiritual-sounding placeholder that means "anything good happened to me or other people"



I could go on and on with these, but the point being... one of the ways to yank people out of false idealism is to have them try to explain their beliefs to themselves. I think that there is reasonable faith these days, but it gets drowned and overcrowded and mixed with a lot of meaningless nonsense that tends to all be packaged as "religion".

Thus, I think that the best way to deal with the issue is to call out people on the metaphors they are using.

I generally say "If you didn't have this phrase or word, what other combination of words would you use to say the same thing? I'm trying to understand what you mean here exactly" There's a lot of nonsense that gets attached to emotional semantics, and it leaches off these emotional labels and metaphors.


Hi,

While wading (trying to understand what you mean) through your rather wonderful (almost perfectly correct, or actually perfectly correct observations about words) set of ideas, only one thing scared me.

It is that words are not precise and never have been precise to everyone.

I saw only 8 points that you made above. I saw actually no flaw (things that I have done Reseach on and have the results for, meaning the data for in the way words are used in that field.) in any of your words.

P.S. I am not philosopher and really, I see no need for Philosophy outside of maybe that field, or in the practical (the little bit of philosophy) philosophy that was and is used on all of science to improve the answers, by eliminating self, (Prejudicial thougts or ideas), and actually always asking the questions (self checking while gathering data or even designing experiments) about the extent of knowing (how accurate you are compared to the Ablsolute or sometimes just calibrated items) and how one knows what reality is as it applies to the work at hand or the work being done.

Nice idea.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Supposed ambiguity is just a way to dance around a clear meaning that is recognized by most. Like the humorous 'literacy test' for voting given to southern black people, written in Hebrew. When asked if he knew what it said one old black gentlemen replied, "Yup. It says us black folks won't be voting again this year."
 
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LivingWordUnity

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ananda

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I find it unbelievable that the infinite Creator would give its message in a human language. As the OP pointed out, it would be subject to innumerable individual interpretations, among other problems (e.g. problems with propagation, preservation, translation, direct knowledge vs indirect faith, etc.). I prefer to believe that, if there is a Creator, its message has been given in the immutable, irrefutable laws of the universe which is directly evident to all, without need for "interpretation".

IMO any other "holy words" given in human language come from a lesser creature, perhaps a highly powerful deva or a brahma who possesses its own agenda, but not the infinite Creator.
 
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katerinah1947

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I find it unbelievable that the infinite Creator would give its message in a human language. As the OP pointed out, it would be subject to innumerable individual interpretations, among other problems (e.g. problems with propagation, preservation, translation, direct knowledge vs indirect faith, etc.). I prefer to believe that, if there is a Creator, its message has been given in the immutable, irrefutable laws of the universe which is directly evident to all, without need for "interpretation".

IMO any other "holy words" given in human language come from a lesser creature, perhaps a highly powerful deva or a brahma who possesses its own agenda, but not the infinite Creator.

Hi,

Belief which you have used twice above, is the core of your message, it seems to me, yet it is belief with much personal input, rather than an objective belief.

And it seems that belief leads you to state that only a flawed creature would give words to a flawed creature. Never would God do that.

LOVE,
 
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Wgw

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1) Our modern lives demand precise language for accurate meaning.

In the past, the ambiguity was the cornerstone of wisdom. You'd see enigmatic personalities left and right, and the more ambiguous they were, the more wisdom they seemed to hold.

But, eventually, you have a large group of followers that parrot metaphorical concepts that are claimed to be understood, but end up being void of meaning. Modern science actually isn't immune to this either.

This is an interesting point. I would counter however that our modern lives require precise language where precise infor,arion is available; the degree of linguistic precision required is proportionate to the amount and accuracy of the available information. Where ambiguity exists, dealing with exactitude is folly.

Some religious examples that I find most irritating:

God is love - What does that mean? It seems like a very imprecise way to define God. It's sort of like saying "My dad is freedom". It doesn't make much sense if one doesn't unpack the meaning.

The divine nature of God cannot be defined positively according to His essence, but only characterized through ambiguous statements, most of which are apophatic in nature. This owes to the logical difficulties in describing an infinte being.

God's love in our hearts - same thing. It seems that these are appealing to hopeless romantics in people rather than actually convey meaning.

This phrase, whilst admittedly more than a little saccharine, and not an authentic liturgical expression per se, is reflective of the personal piety and good-naturedness of those who utter it as a general principle.

Sinful Nature - That's a whopper of enigmatic concepts.

Not to a Christian.

Blessing - It seems like a spiritual-sounding placeholder that means "anything good happened to me or other people"

Here it seems your objection is more with ancient uses of human language as opposed to the philosophical or theologocal idea of a blessing, boon, divine benefit, grace, gift or act of kindness.

I could go on and on with these, but the point being... one of the ways to yank people out of false idealism is to have them try to explain their beliefs to themselves. I think that there is reasonable faith these days, but it gets drowned and overcrowded and mixed with a lot of meaningless nonsense that tends to all be packaged as "religion".

I think the meaningless nonsense is more prevalent among the "Spiritual but not religious" set or those who adhere to what one might call Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.

Thus, I think that the best way to deal with the issue is to call out people on the metaphors they are using.

Perhaps.

I generally say "If you didn't have this phrase or word, what other combination of words would you use to say the same thing? I'm trying to understand what you mean here exactly" There's a lot of nonsense that gets attached to emotional semantics, and it leaches off these emotional labels and metaphors.

On a certain level, as an Orthodox Christian I salute your cold, dispassionate approach; ours is not an emotive form of Christianity and I think you offer a valid, if perhaps misguided, critique of what one might describe as touchy-feely-squeezy Evangelism.
 
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ViaCrucis

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A major problem is that many religious people, or rather Christians, are themselves rather oblivious and uninformed about many things in Christianity, including the meaning of certain terms and phrases. Personally I attribute this to a lack of proper catechesis and to a dumbing down of worship.

Precision in language is there, and yes terms do need to be unpacked because a lot of the language Christianity employs is very old and not originally English, most of it originates in Greek, and among Western Churches also Latin. For example, trying to explain what it means to speak of the "three persons" of the Trinity is simply not possible without understanding first that "person" is probably a really bad use that descends from the Latin persona which was a very contentious translation of the Greek hypostasis--which in Trinitarian terms is rather strictly defined (this is also a major reason why I usually avoid the term "person/persons" and choose instead to use the Greek hypostasis/hypostases and simply explain what that term means).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Wgw

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A major problem is that many religious people, or rather Christians, are themselves rather oblivious and uninformed about many things in Christianity, including the meaning of certain terms and phrases. Personally I attribute this to a lack of proper catechesis and to a dumbing down of worship.

Precision in language is there, and yes terms do need to be unpacked because a lot of the language Christianity employs is very old and not originally English, most of it originates in Greek, and among Western Churches also Latin. For example, trying to explain what it means to speak of the "three persons" of the Trinity is simply not possible without understanding first that "person" is probably a really bad use that descends from the Latin persona which was a very contentious translation of the Greek hypostasis--which in Trinitarian terms is rather strictly defined (this is also a major reason why I usually avoid the term "person/persons" and choose instead to use the Greek hypostasis/hypostases and simply explain what that term means).

-CryptoLutheran

The Greek fathers also used "Prosopon" and "Persona" is a more direct translation of that.
 
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Job8

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And my personal favorite...

"Timeless"

Timeless always appears to me as a term without any real conceptual background. I've never had one person who uses define it in a manner that tells me what it is....they only say what it isn't, which is entirely useless.
What's wrong with eternal -- no beginning and no ending? Would that suit you better?
 
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Job8

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One of the most irritating things that I find discussing the religious topics with other people is the fact that a lot of religious concepts are wrapped up in a rather ambiguous language that people fill with their own concepts and ideas.
Religion is neither science nor philosophy. And since Christianity is spiritual many concepts will appear ambiguous until the Holy Spirit reveals them to you personally. That is why Christ said "Ye must be born again" (which may sound ambiguous but it is a spiritual reality).
 
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