relics!

[E.C.]

I dunno... a picture of one's family is certainly something that falls under the 'delicate items' category. Especially if it was the only picture of some members of it.

A part of my family immigrated from Bavaria to the US. I have a copy of a picture of all nine of them. Less then a year after the picture was taken, one girl in the photo died from childbirth, another died in a fire and a third family member had, if I remember correctly, left the family to live on their own.

The three mentioned; this is the only picture that I know of that has them in it. The only picture where one can see the faces of these human beings. It is also a part of my identity because I look at this family portrait and think to myself "this is (partly) where I come from". Anyone would be a fool to allow an item similar to this family portrait to be taken away and destroyed, defaced or used in a way completely contrary to its intended purpose.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I'll just get to my point...

we are talking about veneration here, not just about relics.

You disagree with veneration.

My point is that we venerate many things in our everyday lives that have nothing to do with God. People venerate the American flag. Do you think this is wrong? People venerate MANY, many things out there, and we as Christians never say they're sinning!

So why this difference? Why is it oki to venerate a flag but not a picture of a Saint? Why is it oki for people to kiss photographs of their children and loved ones but not of Mary and Jesus? Why is veneration oki in one case and not in the other?

Jesus has a real Body.. the Incarnation made it alright to have images of Him, as He appeared on earth. It would be wrong to make an image of the "Word" or "the Son of God" before the Incarnation. But when we make an image of how He was on earth, it's just like when we make images of our families etc.

 

[DArceri]

I'll just get to my point...

we are talking about veneration here, not just about relics.

You disagree with veneration.

My point is that we venerate many things in our everyday lives that have nothing to do with God. People venerate the American flag. Do you think this is wrong? People venerate MANY, many things out there, and we as Christians never say they're sinning!

So why this difference? Why is it oki to venerate a flag but not a picture of a Saint? Why is it oki for people to kiss photographs of their children and loved ones but not of Mary and Jesus? Why is veneration oki in one case and not in the other?

Jesus has a real Body.. the Incarnation made it alright to have images of Him, as He appeared on earth. It would be wrong to make an image of the "Word" or "the Son of God" before the Incarnation. But when we make an image of how He was on earth, it's just like when we make images of our families etc.

UUUGGHHH..BAD ANALOGY....
Why was God pleased that the very image He COMMANDED Moses to make, was destroyed by Hezekiah?

2 Kings 18:3,4
3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.

Note, just having an image is not idolotry. We all own a cross. BUT, images you kiss, bow down to, and burn incense to is considered a serious offense to God. You call it veneration, but God says baloney, it is taking your eye off of Him and redirecting it to someone (or something else). It is an 'offering' due to God alone. We don't define what worship is, God does. Does your church kiss, bow down to, and burn incense to images???? NOTE, Psalm 141:2 and Rev 5:8 on the burning of incense...It is considered sacred worship in God's eyes. Do yourself a favor and do a study on the Tabernacle of the LORD and how incense is used and to whom. Also, check out what happened to Aarons sons when they burnt "STRANGE FIRE." They were struck down. The sin of these priests, obviously, is one of willful presumption.

Ps 141:1-2
1 O LORD, I call to you; come quickly to me.
Hear my voice when I call to you.
2 May my prayer be set before you like incense;
may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.

Rev 5:8
8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Again, bowing and offering incense is considered worship and is directed to God ONLY throughout scripture, not an image, icon or relic. You have scripture, don't willfully presume like Aaron's sons.)

 

[Sphinx777]

2 Kings 18:3,4
3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it

The Nehushtan was a sacred object in the form of a copper snake upon a pole. In the seventh century BC, King Hezekiah instituted a religious iconoclastic reform and destroyed the Nehustan (2 Kings 18:4). Its origin as a bronze snake used by Moses to cure the Israelites from snake bites is recorded in 2 Kings 18ff and the Book of Numbers, and has occasioned much modern commentary, expressing "a bewildering variety of views".

Before the arrival of the Israelites, snake cults were well established in Canaan in the Bronze Age, for archaeologists have uncovered serpent cult objects in Bronze Age strata at several pre-Israelite cities in Canaan: two at Megiddo, one at Gezer, one in the sanctum sanctorum of the Area H temple at Hazor, and two at Shechem.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I'll just get to my point...

we are talking about veneration here, not just about relics.

You disagree with veneration.

My point is that we venerate many things in our everyday lives that have nothing to do with God.

Not Spirit-filled believers.

People venerate the American flag. Do you think this is wrong?

Yes, absolutely.

People venerate MANY, many things out there, and we as Christians never say they're sinning!

We should!

So why this difference? Why is it oki to venerate a flag but not a picture of a Saint?

It's not OK.

Why is it oki for people to kiss photographs of their children and loved ones but not of Mary and Jesus?

There is no such thing as a photograph of Jesus or Mary.

Why is veneration oki in one case and not in the other?

It's never OK.

 

[lionroar0]

There is no such thing as a photograph of Jesus or Mary.

There is an Icon of Jesus that dates back to about 46AD.

Peace

 

[Thekla]

Photographic representations (or, in earlier times) tend to a sort of "realism"; Icons are not meant to present a physical reality (which is presently the fallen world), but the effect of the spiritual on the physical. They are, in this sense, symbolic - technically, ikons are not referred to as being "painted". They are said to be "written". This is because they do not pretend or aim to present a picture, but like the scripture are a spiritual "text". The scriptures do not record "history", although they offer descriptions of things that occurred in history. The scriptures record the revelation, and the effect of the action of God on humans in human history. The ikon is intended to this purpose as well.