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Relativity

Michael

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I know this will make you happy, so I will answer this question. Gravity or GR is negligible in atoms, so electromagnetism is the primary force that determines the binding of electrons to the nuclei in atoms.

The problem with Lambda-CDM is that it "left out" an *extremely* important force of nature when trying to describe a *mostly plasma universe* that is filled with moving charged particles and objects.

The primary missing ingredient in a GR centric cosmology theory is the EM fields in spacetime that are generated by moving charged particles. You can't 'leave that out' of the equations and expect the equations to work right. That's why Lambda-CDM needs all it's invisible metaphysical extensions. There's no mystery as to *why* it's a flawed theory about a mostly plasma universe, and there's no mystery as to why it doesn't work to describe the universe without the need for purely supernatural ad hoc constructs. It *left out* the EM field effects of a mostly plasma universe, and tries to make up for it with supernatural constructs galore.

If you're willing to acknowledge that GR alone doesn't fully describe the behaviors of a mostly plasma universe, the next things we *should* be adding to GR is Maxwell's equations, and inelastic scattering, not dark energy.
 
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Loudmouth

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For the very same reason you folks keep claiming the exact opposite.

And what is that reason?

It's a blatant bait and switch device. Why don't you understand that?

It's an analogy. Get over yourself.

It's entirely clear based upon his statements about "nothing' being 'spacetime' that he's not describing the physics of matter/energy (as does GR), he's trying to apply GR theory to an imaginary nothing, and make "nothing' do supernatural expansion tricks. Sorry, that just won't fly with me, and it will never fly in the lab.

Spacetime is treated as a metric in GR, and that is exactly how essentialsaltes is treating it. Why do you have a problem with that?

Your so called 'analogy' is not an analogy,

Nope, it's an analogy. Sadly, you don't seem to understand how analogies work.
 
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Michael

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And what is that reason?

In my case it's to *counter* your unsupported claim, and to point out that it's an unsupported claim.

It's an analogy. Get over yourself.

It's a blatant bait and switch device. Get real.

Spacetime is treated as a metric in GR, and that is exactly how essentialsaltes is treating it. Why do you have a problem with that?

I already explained the problems I have with his claims, starting with the claim that "nothing"="spacetime".

Nope, it's an analogy. Sadly, you don't seem to understand how analogies work.

I understand exactly how bait and switch devices work. You have not supported your *actual* claim, and that bait and switch analogy doesn't support your claim, it's supports *my* claim and *only* my claim. Ditto for Doppler shift. Both of your primary bait and switch devices are related to *object movement*, not 'space expansion'.
 
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essentialsaltes

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no mass/energy, no 'spacetime'.

You and your scare quotes. Spacetime is the arena in which stuff exists. (and before you ask, no, it's not a physical arena made of girders or bricks, where they sell overpriced hotdogs). The equations of GR can quite easily be applied to an empty arena. G = T.

If there's no matter or radiation, then there's no energy or pressure. So the T side of the equation is zero. You can still solve that equation, and some solutions have expanding space.

Your objection is basically the same as taking F = ma and saying that if the total force is zero, then there can't be any objects moving. Obviously, that's wrong.

You have nothing to expand, nothing to contract

Right, there are no objects in an empty universe. Nevertheless, the differential equations describe the changes in the metric. It is the metric that describes distances and intervals. If the metric changes, so do distances. Space expands.

I have no clue what you're trying to apply any energy tensors *to* in the first place *without* matter/energy. :confused:

It's not that difficult. The stress-energy tensor has entries in it corresponding to the energy density and pressure. In an empty universe, there's no energy or pressure, so those entries are zero. Is that so complicated?
If there's no stuff in the universe...
212041_4063684_lz.jpg


Easy!

If you're willing to acknowledge that GR alone doesn't fully describe the behaviors of a mostly plasma universe

Why would I acknowledge that? We know what the stress energy tensor looks like for charges. We know what the stress energy tensor looks like for electromagnetism. Be my guest. Plug them in. But it's not going to give you the negative pressure you need to make your EM universe static.

----

What you completely ignored was my discussion of what the Einstein tensor is made of (and thus, what GR is about). So let's sum it up again.

The Einstein tensor is made of the metric and the derivatives of the metric.

Thus, GR is a theory about how the metric changes.

The metric is our rulers and clocks.

If the metric has nonzero derivatives, then our rulers and clocks are changing.

Bingo, space expansion.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Originally Posted by essentialsaltes
From the standpoint of GR, an empty universe is one without matter or radiation. i.e. the elements of the stress-energy tensor are zero.
Ah, sort of like mystical astronomy, like asking the question: What is the sound of nothing expanding? ;)

Nothing mystical at all. Just to hammer this home, check out the Wikipedia page for vacuum solution (general relativity). It starts with a definition equivalent to mine:

"In general relativity, a vacuum solution is a Lorentzian manifold whose Einstein tensor vanishes identically. According to the Einstein field equation, this means that the stress-energy tensor also vanishes identically, so that no matter or non-gravitational fields are present."

And then it goes on to provide 10 examples of vacuum solutions, including several exhibiting space expansion. For instance, the Kasner metric, in which "space is expanding or contracting at different rates in different directions"

GR is a theory of how spacetime changes, not how matter moves.

Space expansion is one way that spacetime can change.
 
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Loudmouth

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In my case it's to *counter* your unsupported claim, and to point out that it's an unsupported claim.

Regardless, it is an unsupported claim.


It's a blatant bait and switch device. Get real.

It is an abstraction that is only meant for illustration. If you like, we can completey ignore the analogy and go with the literal thing which is the Einstein tensor:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/2/d/82d282358db7d6ad00c944aa613c86b3.png

I already explained the problems I have with his claims, starting with the claim that "nothing"="spacetime".

Your problems are your problem, quite literally. If you think GR is wrong, then show why it is wrong instead of whining about it.
 
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Michael

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Regardless, it is an unsupported claim.

As is yours. :p

It is an abstraction that is only meant for illustration. If you like, we can completey ignore the analogy and go with the literal thing which is the Einstein tensor:

I have no idea what you're trying to apply any of Einstein's math to *without* mass/energy. You're blatantly attempting to remove the cause/effect relationships of GR completely. Sorry, that's a bogus claim and bogus argument.

Your problems are your problem, quite literally. If you think GR is wrong, then show why it is wrong instead of whining about it.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with GR theory, just your blunder theory that is stuffed full of supernatural constructs. It's up to *you* to demonstrate *your* claims, and you can't keep using bait and switch tactics that actually support *my* claims and *only* my claims. I'm on to your ruse already.
 
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Michael

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You and your scare quotes.

Sorry, bad habits are hard to break. It took me forever to get rid of caps. I'm still working on limiting my use of terms for your non-demonstrated in the lab claims to less offensive terms like "supernatural".

Spacetime is the arena in which stuff exists.
But you just took all the stuff out! There is no arena in which stuff exists in your 'nothingness'. There's no geometric curvature. There's no "spacetime".

(and before you ask, no, it's not a physical arena made of girders or bricks, where they sell overpriced hotdogs).
Yes, GR describes an arena made of mass and energy, like your girders and bricks. You cannot remove the girders and bricks and still claim to have a stadium where you intend to see overpriced hotdogs. :)

The equations of GR can quite easily be applied to an empty arena. G = T.
It's entirely meaningless to do so. There's no curvature. There's no expansion of anything *substantive* inside that empty arena. There's nothing really to apply such theories to, and you have no evidence that the formulas have any meaning *in the absence of* all matter/energy. Nothing prevents you from applying Maxwell's equations to "nothing" either I suppose, but there's still no point to it.

If there's no matter or radiation, then there's no energy or pressure. So the T side of the equation is zero. You can still solve that equation, and some solutions have expanding space.
You've effectively tried to remove the entire basis of general relativity theory, namely mass/energy. Without it, you have no arena, you have no hot dogs to sell, you've got nothing to expand, nothing to contract, and nothing work with.

You still haven't defined "space" in any *physical* (not mathematical) way that doesn't turn "space" into a glorified aether.

Your objection is basically the same as taking F = ma and saying that if the total force is zero, then there can't be any objects moving. Obviously, that's wrong.
No, my objection is if m is zero, F can't be forcing space to accelerate off into the sunset.

Right, there are no objects in an empty universe. Nevertheless, the differential equations describe the changes in the metric.
Without any energy or matter to work with, you cannot demonstrate that any GR metrics even exist at all!

It is the metric that describes distances and intervals. If the metric changes, so do distances. Space expands.
The operative term in your statement was the term was 'if' the metric changes. You don't have a single atom or electron to your name, so you certainly cannot demonstrate in any controlled experiment that the metric changes and that space expands. The whole claim is a 'pure act of faith' on the part of the believer.


It's not that difficult. The stress-energy tensor has entries in it corresponding to the energy density and pressure. In an empty universe, there's no energy or pressure, so those entries are zero. Is that so complicated?
If there's no stuff in the universe...
...'mark it zero'...
Easy!
Marking it zero is fine. It's claiming that it still has curvature or it's still *doing* anything I'm not fine with. Nothing cannot expand. You've created a mystical nothing with mystical mathematical properties that have nothing to do with nothing, and everything to do with mass/energy.

Why would I acknowledge that? We know what the stress energy tensor looks like for charges. We know what the stress energy tensor looks like for electromagnetism. Be my guest. Plug them in. But it's not going to give you the negative pressure you need to make your EM universe static.
You still do not seem to appreciate that I do not 'need' the universe to be static, certainly not *completely* static in all places at all times. I'm fine with an 'expanding object' universe.

What you completely ignored was my discussion of what the Einstein tensor is made of (and thus, what GR is about). So let's sum it up again.

The Einstein tensor is made of the metric and the derivatives of the metric.
Gravity, the thing those mathematical symbols describe is a curvature of spacetime in GR theory, *caused by the presence of mass energy*. Without the *cause* the formulas apply to *nothing*, and *nothing* cannot do anything. Nothing cannot sing. Nothing cannot dance. Nothing cannot expand, and nothing cannot contract.

Thus, GR is a theory about how the metric changes.
GR theory is *not* about how the metric changes, it's about how mass/energy curves spacetime. The metric changes you're describing as dark energy and inflation are *absolutely not* necessary in GR, nor is GR theory dependent upon inflation or dark energy.

The metric is our rulers and clocks.

If the metric has nonzero derivatives, then our rulers and clocks are changing.

Bingo, space expansion.
You're still ignoring my EM field example, where the electric field does have a source and a sink, but the magnetic field does not. Time can change, but not the metrics. Furthermore the metric changes we observe are directly related to location and concentration of mass/energy, not the absence of it.

Again, you're not acknowledging that GR theory stands on it's own merits *without* inflation, and *without* dark energy. It's a complete theory without either claim and without the claim of an expanding metric.

Only one *otherwise falsified* cosmology theory requires all these "supernatural" claims that cannot be demonstrated in a lab.
 
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Michael

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And what is that reason?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

You just used that link in another thread, but it apply to your claims about space doing expansion tricks.

I think I'll just use your favorite link, and note *your* fallacy. You never demonstrated that "space expands", or that space is actually capable of expanding.

You didn't define 'space' (separate from distance), in fact you folks linked it right back to a *metric distance in "nothing*, as though space is composed of some expanding aether thingy made of absolutely 'nothing'. It's the most 'supernatural' claim I've heard and you're incapable of demonstrating that claim on Earth in any controlled experiment on Earth.
 
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Loudmouth

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As is yours.

Already supported in the other thread.

I have no idea what you're trying to apply any of Einstein's math to *without* mass/energy.

Why would we include mass/energy when we are talking about the expansion of the spacetime metric and not mass/energy? Talk about your bait and switches.

You're blatantly attempting to remove the cause/effect relationships of GR completely.

No, that is what you are doing by ignoring the expansion that can occur without mass or energy. We are discussing the expansion or contraction of spacetime that is not caused by mass/energy.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with GR theory, just your blunder theory that is stuffed full of supernatural constructs.

So you agree that GR allows for the contraction or expansion of spacetime as defined by the Einstein tensor?
 
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Loudmouth

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You just used that link in another thread, but it apply to your claims about space doing expansion tricks.

The proof is the observed redshift, as discussed earlier and throughout other threads. Expanding space will produce a redshift without objects needing to move through that space.

I have supplied evidence. Where is your evidence for the inability of space to expand?

You didn't define 'space' (separate from distance),

That is like saying that I didn't define time separate from the passage of seconds.

in fact you folks linked it right back to a *metric distance in "nothing*, as though space is composed of some expanding aether thingy made of absolutely 'nothing'.

No one is proposing an aether. That is another of your bait and switch tactics.
 
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Michael

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Already supported in the other thread.

Nope, your claims are not supported by *experimentation*, just pure handwaves while you point at the sky.

Why would we include mass/energy when we are talking about the expansion of the spacetime metric and not mass/energy? Talk about your bait and switches.
The "spacetime metric" depends on their actually *being* a 'spacetime', and without mass/energy, there isn't one. You can't describe the spacetime metric without spacetime.

No, that is what you are doing by ignoring the expansion that can occur without mass or energy.
I'm ignoring your claim because you never demonstrated it via *controlled experimentation*. You just *assumed* it.

We are discussing the expansion or contraction of spacetime that is not caused by mass/energy.
You cannot demonstrate that there is such a thing in a controlled experiment. The only *demonstrated* expansion and/or contraction of "spacetime" occurs because of the movement of objects.

So you agree that GR allows for the contraction or expansion of spacetime as defined by the Einstein tensor?
I'm going to allow for the concept of moving object expansion, but I have absolutely no need for your supernatural claims to be true. You're the one with an emotional attachment to the claim that spacetime expansion happens in the *absence of* all matter and energy, not me. Demonstrate your claim *physically* in a real experiment or retract it.
 
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Loudmouth

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Nope, your claims are not supported by *experimentation*,

They are supported by empirical observation which qualifies as evidence.

Where is your evidence?

The "spacetime metric" depends on their actually *being* a 'spacetime',

Since you can measure lenght and time it is quite obvious that there is space and time. Further experiments have demonstrated that the two are intrinsically intertwined so that changing one changes the other.

and without mass/energy, there isn't one.

You still have not demonstrated this.

You can't describe the spacetime metric without spacetime.

Stunning, isn't it?

I'm ignoring your claim because you never demonstrated it via *controlled experimentation*. You just *assumed* it.

Does GR allow for expanding space? Yes or no?

I'm going to allow for concept of moving object expansion, but I have no need for your claims to be true.

This thread isn't about your needs. It is about whether or not GR allows for expanding spacetime.
 
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Michael

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The proof is the observed redshift, as discussed earlier and throughout other threads.

As I have explained to you in any number of threads, redshift has *not ever* been demonstrated to be related to 'space expansion'. That is yet *another* non demonstrated claim. You're already pulling a bait and switch routine and calling it 'evidence'.

Expanding space will produce a redshift without objects needing to move through that space.
Nothing like affirming the consequent fallacies eh?

I'm really sick and tired of listening to your *dogma*, none of which you can support in *empirical experimentation*. That whole claim is bogus from beginning to end. You can't demonstrate that "expanding space" is possible, let alone that it produces anything remotely like photon redshift. You *assume* both points based entirely on bait and switch tactics apparently.

I have supplied evidence. Where is your evidence for the inability of space to expand?
You supplied *nothing of the sort*. You have no evidence, just *allegation galore* that require *multiple* supernatural constructs. Meanwhile you entirely *left out* any sense of actual moving objects, and any concept of inelastic scattering as though these things never actually happen in labs on Earth.

No one is proposing an aether. That is another of your bait and switch tactics.
You're not even *honest* enough to admit you've created an 'expanding space aether" out of your rubber sheet analogy and out of your doppler shift analogy. You're trying to have your metaphysical cake and eat it too. You'll then blame everyone else for the confusion you create by the use of your bait and switch tactics. Lather, rinse, repeat.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Again, you're not acknowledging that GR theory stands on it's own merits *without* inflation, and *without* dark energy.

This is obviously false. I just got through showing you GR models that don't have any energy at all, much less any dark energy or inflation.

Obviously an empty universe is not the best model of our own actual universe. But neither is Einstein's original formulation of GR. The best fit to the experimental data requires modifications to Einstein's theory.

Your requirements:
1) Space is not expanding.
2) No fairy dust (i.e. exotic matter).
3) No blunder (i.e. cosmological constant).
4) The universe looks something like ours.

is not a possible solution of GR.

To keep the universe static, you need either a cosmological constant, or you need something with negative pressure. You can fiddle with charges and EM fields all you like, but you won't get negative pressure out of them.
 
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Loudmouth

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As I have explained to you in any number of threads, redshift has *not ever* been demonstrated to be related to 'space expansion'.

Would expanding space produce a redshift? Yes or no?

I'm really sick and tired of listening to your *dogma*, none of which you can support in *empirical experimentation*.

We have empirical observation which is evidence.

You can't demonstrate that "expanding space" is possible,

That is exactly what GR demonstrates. It is possible.
 
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essentialsaltes

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You can't demonstrate that "expanding space" is possible

That's what nonzero derivatives of the metric are: expanding (or contracting) space and time.

let alone that it produces anything remotely like photon redshift.

It's obvious. If a photon's clock slows down, it will decrease the frequency. If its ruler stretches, so does the wavelength.

General relativity predicted time dilation redshift, and this has been measured in a lab. Prediction confirmed.

Cosmologically relevant general relativity models predict space expansion redshift over cosmologically significant distances, and this has been measured by labs.
 
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Michael

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This is obviously false. I just got through showing you GR models that don't have any energy at all, much less any dark energy or inflation.

You showed me *hypothetical* GR mathematical models that try to describe a 'spacetime' in the absence of matter and energy as though gravity is not dependent upon matter/energy. Sorry, you can't simply separate *cause* from *effect* like that and expect me to believe you without experimental confirmation.

Obviously an empty universe is not the best model of our own actual universe. But neither is Einstein's original formulation of GR. The best fit to the experimental data requires modifications to Einstein's theory.
Your supernatural modifications to a blunder theory are in fact separate claims from GR theory.

Your requirements:
1) Space is not expanding.
2) No fairy dust (i.e. exotic matter).
3) No blunder (i.e. cosmological constant).
4) The universe looks something like ours.

is not a possible solution of GR.
It's not possible without the inclusion of EM fields, inelastic scattering, and/or the movement of objects, I'll grant you that much.

To keep the universe static, you need either a cosmological constant, or you need something with negative pressure. You can fiddle with charges and EM fields all you like, but you won't get negative pressure out of them.
I can get two identically charged objects to repel each other, and that's really all I need.

Electric charge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Positively charged substances are repelled from other positively charged substances, but attracted to negatively charged substances; negatively charged substances are repelled from negative and attracted to positive. An object will be negatively charged if it has an excess of electrons, and will otherwise be positively charged or uncharged.
Birkeland's cathode sun theory suggests that *all suns* are cathodes with respect to space. They should actually 'repel' each other. The fact you won't consider charge repulsion as a substitute for 'negative pressure' is no skin off my nose.
 
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Loudmouth

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You showed me *hypothetical* GR mathematical models that try to describe a 'spacetime' in the absence of matter and energy as though gravity is not dependent upon matter/energy. Sorry, you can't simply separate *cause* from *effect* like that and expect me to believe you without experimental confirmation.



Your supernatural modifications to a blunder theory are in fact separate claims from GR theory.



It's not possible without the inclusion of EM fields, inelastic scattering, and/or the movement of objects, I'll grant you that much.



I can get two identically charged objects to repel each other, and that's really all I need.

Electric charge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Birkeland's cathode sun theory suggests that *all suns* are cathodes with respect to space. They should actually 'repel' each other. They fact you won't consider charge repulsion as a substitute for 'negative pressure' is no skin off my nose.

What this all boils down to is that you think GR is wrong. Is that correct?
 
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Michael

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What this all boils down to is that you think GR is wrong. Is that correct?

No. I think GR theory as Einstein taught it to his students is correct, and I think your supernatural blunder hypothesis is incorrect.
 
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