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psychedelicist

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I can't help but notice a misunderstanding of relativism by absolutists. I would like to clarify what it, to me, means. The entire misunderstanding seems to be hinged on the idea that relativism is this: "I asert that it is factually TRUE that there is no such thing as TRUTH." Which is of course as illogical as they say, but then again this is not representative of relativism at all. The idea (emphasis on idea, since relativism cannot be provable or disprovable, it only exists as a mere thought, a meme if you would like to call it that) of relativism is relatable to artwork. Take a piece of inspirational artwork you know of- I will use Alex Gray's "Gaia" as my example, since I don't know much other artwork that's nearly as inspiriational. To me it means that life is cyclical, that we have raped, pillaged, and destroyed this planet for our own gain, yet you see that the tree (representative of the earth) lives on regardless, that this destruction will destroy us long before it destroys the earth. I could go on but that would get us off topic. Now, when you look at the picture, is that the EXACT meaning you draw from it? Most likely not. More likely you draw a different meaning from it. But then whose interpretation is correct? It seems to me that the above question cannot even be answered- you cannot apply truth and falseness to subjective meanings. The painting does not have any meaning in itself, it is a jumble of colors and paper. It has no more purpose than a rock. Yet we give it a purpose, for ourselves. Outside of what we give to it it is nothing more than an object. Now, apply that to everything, and you have a basic understanding of relativism. It is the PERCEPTION that truth does not exist, not the FACT that it does not. Since perceptions cannot be truer than one another, they cannot be labelled as right or wrong. BUT, to satisfy the absolutists who are not still convinced that relativism can even be logical, I must confess that it does seem to me that there is one self-evident Truth we can all agree on: Everything Is. Even this is may be too complex to describe it, but it is the best we can describe it. I think we can all agree on this point. And that is the Truth I see. No laws about morality, nothing inheirently right or wrong, everything simply is, and we are now percieving 'Everything' as if it were a painting, we give our meanings to it, we assign subjective values to it (some of these subjective values assert that they are actually objective, but I do not percieve this to be the case). My perceptions may be more beautiful, more intricate, more complex, but they cannot be more true than your own. Of course this is just my perceptions talking, what do I really know? :)
 

elman

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psychedelicist said:
I can't help but notice a misunderstanding of relativism by absolutists. I would like to clarify what it, to me, means. The entire misunderstanding seems to be hinged on the idea that relativism is this: "I asert that it is factually TRUE that there is no such thing as TRUTH." Which is of course as illogical as they say, but then again this is not representative of relativism at all. The idea (emphasis on idea, since relativism cannot be provable or disprovable, it only exists as a mere thought, a meme if you would like to call it that) of relativism is relatable to artwork. Take a piece of inspirational artwork you know of- I will use Alex Gray's "Gaia" as my example, since I don't know much other artwork that's nearly as inspiriational. To me it means that life is cyclical, that we have raped, pillaged, and destroyed this planet for our own gain, yet you see that the tree (representative of the earth) lives on regardless, that this destruction will destroy us long before it destroys the earth. I could go on but that would get us off topic. Now, when you look at the picture, is that the EXACT meaning you draw from it? Most likely not. More likely you draw a different meaning from it. But then whose interpretation is correct? It seems to me that the above question cannot even be answered- you cannot apply truth and falseness to subjective meanings. The painting does not have any meaning in itself, it is a jumble of colors and paper. It has no more purpose than a rock. Yet we give it a purpose, for ourselves. Outside of what we give to it it is nothing more than an object. Now, apply that to everything, and you have a basic understanding of relativism. It is the PERCEPTION that truth does not exist, not the FACT that it does not. Since perceptions cannot be truer than one another, they cannot be labelled as right or wrong. BUT, to satisfy the absolutists who are not still convinced that relativism can even be logical, I must confess that it does seem to me that there is one self-evident Truth we can all agree on: Everything Is. Even this is may be too complex to describe it, but it is the best we can describe it. I think we can all agree on this point. And that is the Truth I see. No laws about morality, nothing inheirently right or wrong, everything simply is, and we are now percieving 'Everything' as if it were a painting, we give our meanings to it, we assign subjective values to it (some of these subjective values assert that they are actually objective, but I do not percieve this to be the case). My perceptions may be more beautiful, more intricate, more complex, but they cannot be more true than your own. Of course this is just my perceptions talking, what do I really know? :)
Torturing babies is inherintly wrong. Not relative to anyone's perception.
 
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psychedelicist

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Try copying the entire thing into notepad and getting it right there first. Then drop it into here. Looks like perhaps you cut and pasted from a blog?
No, I typed it all in myself. Originally there were about 7 paragraphs but for some reason it didn't include any of the enter's, even after I tried editing it. Oddly, most people don't seem to be having this problem. I do keep geting this message though: "Warning: Division by zero in /newreply.php on line 533". I'm guessing it has something to do with the problem.
Sorry for the massive cut here...but this does not compute. Please expand on this.
I guess you could call it materialism- the whole idea of an inheirent, unspoken, inexpressable 'thing' called morality doesn't make sense. I call it a 'thing' because I don't even know what to categorize it as. An object? A being? Anything with observable or measurable qualities to it? A mere idea? It seems (to me) that the only possible option is the last one, but an idea is certainly not a universal law.
Torturing babies is inherintly wrong. Not relative to anyone's perception.
I guess you could call me cold for saying this, but I disagree. It is certainly not productive to our evolution, and thus we see it as sickening. Take this example- animals are sinless, they must be inheirently moral according to christianity. Well, a black widow bites the heads off it's mates after it's pregnant. Now, in a human society we would see this (a pregnant woman biting her husband's head off) as sickening, and we would certainly see it as wrong. Yet these 'sinless' animals do it anyways, how then can it be a sin? And if it is not a sin, how is it immoral? (just to clarify I'm not saying it's moral to torture babies or to do anything else. Any action seems completely amoral to me.)
 
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Casstranquility

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psychedelicist,

:thumbsup: Great post! I agree that relativism is misunderstood. I am a relativist myself, even though I see that there is an Absolute Truth, I realize that it can only be viewed, approached, and understood relatively, because we are all different, and our perceptions are all different.
 
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elman

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psychedelicist said:
I guess you could call me cold for saying this, but I disagree. It is certainly not productive to our evolution, and thus we see it as sickening. Take this example- animals are sinless, they must be inheirently moral according to christianity. Well, a black widow bites the heads off it's mates after it's pregnant. Now, in a human society we would see this (a pregnant woman biting her husband's head off) as sickening, and we would certainly see it as wrong. Yet these 'sinless' animals do it anyways, how then can it be a sin? And if it is not a sin, how is it immoral? (just to clarify I'm not saying it's moral to torture babies or to do anything else. Any action seems completely amoral to me.)
Cold is a pretty mild term for someone who thinks torturing bqbies to hear them scream could be alrigh depending on I am not sure what. Sin is being unloving. Animals do not sin because animals are not created capable of loving in the sence that humans are. They are not sinless because they are inheirently moral. Humans sin because they know something is wrong and all normal humans that are mentally acompetent know torturing babies is wrong. It is not relative to anything. It stands there all by itself objectivly wrong.
 
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PapaLandShark

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levi501 said:
by torturing babies do you mean circumcision?
Ever seen footage/pictures of the Vietnam war? A child running down the road on fire from a napalm blast? Don't tell me that part of you doesn't shake at that image.

God writes his moral laws on all our hearts.
 
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psychedelicist

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PapaLandShark said:
Ever seen footage/pictures of the Vietnam war? A child running down the road on fire from a napalm blast? Don't tell me that part of you doesn't shake at that image.

God writes his moral laws on all our hearts.

Actually I have seen that very footage. It's painful just for me to watch something like that. But it's not that way for everyone. Do you know what a sociopath is? It's a person who is not bothered in the least by any amount of pain for others. Torture, killing, rape, all can be done with equal ease as eating and sleeping. If you PET scan a normal person, just the word killing or rape causes a reaction in their frontal lobe- one of innate disgust. Do this with a sociopath and you find that it has absolutely no effect on their brain at all, no more than words like car or school. For those that develop a liking for killing and torture, you find that it actually produces the same effects as saying the name of their favorite food or TV show, one of pleasure or even longing.

Did God just accidentally forget to write his moral law on their hearts? Or is it an evolutionary error causing them to be programmed differently towards certain actions than others?
 
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PapaLandShark

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psychedelicist said:
Actually I have seen that very footage. It's painful just for me to watch something like that. But it's not that way for everyone. Do you know what a sociopath is? It's a person who is not bothered in the least by any amount of pain for others. Torture, killing, rape, all can be done with equal ease as eating and sleeping. If you PET scan a normal person, just the word killing or rape causes a reaction in their frontal lobe- one of innate disgust. Do this with a sociopath and you find that it has absolutely no effect on their brain at all, no more than words like car or school. For those that develop a liking for killing and torture, you find that it actually produces the same effects as saying the name of their favorite food or TV show, one of pleasure or even longing.

Did God just accidentally forget to write his moral law on their hearts? Or is it an evolutionary error causing them to be programmed differently towards certain actions than others?
Some people are broken yes. Some are ridden by demons. I wonder if anyone thought to walk these same folks through the commandments and watch thier brain waves?


Give you odds that if you set the same Sociopath on fire a few times he'd ask why. Eventually he'd probably even bring up the subject of morality...as applies to himself. He is, after all, relatively only the far end of the spectrum yes?
 
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psychedelicist

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PapaLandShark said:
Some people are broken yes. Some are ridden by demons. I wonder if anyone thought to walk these same folks through the commandments and watch thier brain waves?


I can't say I know much about how sociopaths respond to what, my guess would be either uncomprehension as to why it's wrong or probably a scoff.

But I don't think it's fair to attribute it to demons when we can observe much more materialistic reasons (genetic mutations, the passing of sociopathy hereditarily)

BTW... monitoring brain waves wouldn't tell you much aside from how awake they were, a PET scan or fMRI would be the only good tool to measure their reaction Just to nitpick. Unless what you are saying about demons is true and showing them the 10 commandments would induce a massively aversive reactio.

Give you odds that if you set the same Sociopath on fire a few times he'd ask why. Eventually he'd probably even bring up the subject of morality...as applies to himself. He is, after all, relatively only the far end of the spectrum yes?

Well yes, most sociopaths would likely still be averted to their own pain, he'd want to come up with a reason to stop setting him on fire. I don't think the idea of morality would come to them though. Sociopaths also tend to apply humans not caring about each other to also not caring about them as well. For instance, they would understand that those people causing him harm are doing it for the same reasons he is.Though he would want to minimize his own pain he can also understand (to some subconcious degree) that "I don't care about causing him pain, why should he care about causing me any?". Much in the same way that though myself and a buddhist pursue different truths in different ways, and though I don't agree with their way I understand WHY they are doing it, because they are, like me, seeking something. It's probably not a concious thought that ever crosses their mind just like it really doesn't cross my own mind unless I really think about it, but it's an understanding nonetheless.
 
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PapaLandShark

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I see. So what you are saying is you don't know. Your philosophy to me is rather hollow. It places morality in a grey area where it's safe and hard to see. This is not an attack on you mind you. It's understandable. Better to do so than to have to stare at a certainty that offers no compromise yes?

Even sociopaths have a morality of a sort...thier own. What is disturbing to most is that it is not so different from our own...just more extreme.

But still I will contend, however warped it may be, that understanding of right and wrong is there.
 
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Verv

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I think you are not seeing the full ramifications of what you are saying: If moral values are like paintings and we are meant to all take away different perspectives, this means that even very warped views bcome valid. If morality is a purely relative concept and there are no absolutes, then we come to the conclusion that there is effectively no morality being that people make up enough concepts on morals that justify clear transgressions against the common good. There have been significant amount of people that have believed in genocide -- take the example of hundreds of thousands of Hutus massacring their neighbor Tutsis in Rwanda. If we allow morality to be entirely subjective, then how can there be a proper condemnation of something as this? People perceive themselves as victims and then justify their crimes against a perceived offender. Moral relativism can be used to essentially make gross infractions on human rights seem acceptable, being that there are more than enough examples of a majority of people choosing to do something this grossly immoral.
 
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elman

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psychedelicist said:
Actually I have seen that very footage. It's painful just for me to watch something like that. But it's not that way for everyone. Do you know what a sociopath is? It's a person who is not bothered in the least by any amount of pain for others. Torture, killing, rape, all can be done with equal ease as eating and sleeping. If you PET scan a normal person, just the word killing or rape causes a reaction in their frontal lobe- one of innate disgust. Do this with a sociopath and you find that it has absolutely no effect on their brain at all, no more than words like car or school. For those that develop a liking for killing and torture, you find that it actually produces the same effects as saying the name of their favorite food or TV show, one of pleasure or even longing.

Did God just accidentally forget to write his moral law on their hearts? Or is it an evolutionary error causing them to be programmed differently towards certain actions than others?
It is mental disease. God did not do it. We are in a world in which people get sick and die. When they do, it is because they are in a world in which everyone dies, not because God did it.
 
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elman

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Zovingas said:
So how does saying 'that is wrong' mean anything more than 'I believe that is wrong'?

Something a lot of people don't seem to understand about moral relativity is that it is descriptive, not prescriptive.
Hurting people like torturing babies and animals for that matter is wrong because it is wrong, not because someone believes it is wrong. Believing it is right does not make it right. Right and wrong are not the products of our belief. Our belief is our perception of right and wrong and sometimes our perception of reality is flawed. Actually it is always flawed to some extent.
 
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