Rejecting Sola Fide

[concretecamper]

Someone that is not motivated by God's love will crumble when enough pressure is applied

If you mean to say "motivation born from the fact that he/she loves God", I would agree with that.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

If you mean to say "motivation born from the fact that he/she loves God", I would agree with that.

No, I don't mean our emotions towards Him but in our surrendering to His Spirit in us...

How do you think people were able to remain faithful to God when their families were tortured and killed in front of them and themselves tortured to recant their faith? It is only through complete surrender to His Spirit and a real and abiding relationship that anyone could endure that. Profession of the heart is different that surrender of the heart.

 

[Albion]

I think this highlights some general issues when discussing the Solas. Even though Protestants universally, I believe, accept the 5 Solas, how these Solas are understood, I think one find a very wide range of shades of gray. Thus the issue of discussing them.

Interesting observation there. However, I'm inclined to think it's more a matter of the "so then what's" which follow a mention of one of the solas. That happens with a lot of doctrines, regardless of the church that's involved.

For example, if Sola Scriptura is mentioned, someone who doesn't believe in Sola Scriptura is bound to ask, "but different people have different interpretations of that Scripture, so...." This is to misunderstand what Sola Scriptura is all about, but the "follow-up" often is asked anyway.

Or, take Sola Fide. While that's really clear cut, the mention of it often brings "So does that mean you can sin at will and you're going to be saved no matter what?" Or, a more reasonable question might be, "You're saved by faith, but can you ever lose it?

In all of these cases, the "follow-up" normally comes from a person who doubts or misunderstands the meaning of the sola.

 

[concretecamper]

No, I don't mean our emotions towards Him but in our surrendering to His Spirit in us...

How do you think people were able to remain faithful to God when their families were tortured and killed in front of them and themselves tortured to recant their faith? It is only through complete surrender to His Spirit and a real and abiding relationship that anyone could endure that. Profession of the heart is different that surrender of the heart.

I don't see how emotions play a part in all of this. Also, profession alone is inadequate, action is needed.

 

[PapaZoom]

Ok, thank you for that answer! Helps me better grasp where you're coming from. In my understanding, our good works of obedience to Christ do increase our chances of being saved, so that's a point in which we differ.

Chances of being saved? Salvation is not by chance. You need to reexamine your thinking. You can do nothing to help your salvation. Maybe you meant something different.

 

[MennoSota]

Hey, guys. So it's been a few years since I've been on these forums. Missed this fellowship! Just wanted to share a thought here. So after several years of studying Scripture, I've come to the point where I believe that our works in and for Christ do determine where we go after death. That faith, works, and grace are somehow all a vital, united whole that works out our salvation, in Christ. That salvation is not just initial conversion, but a daily process of discipleship, dying to self, love, devotion, and works of obedience. Any one else feel this way, even if you're technically "Protestant"?

Welcome oh Galatian for whom Paul wrote an entire letter wishing that those who taught works salvation would emasculate themselves. You sadden me with your comments. It is hard to imagine that the lie of the Galatians is still being foisted on Christians after all these years.

 

[PapaZoom]

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them”—Ephesians 2:8-10.

 

[PapaZoom]

/thread

 

[Erose]

Interesting observation there. However, I'm inclined to think it's more a matter of the "so then what's" which follow a mention of one of the solas. That happens with a lot of doctrines, regardless of the church that's involved.

For example, if Sola Scriptura is mentioned, someone who doesn't believe in Sola Scriptura is bound to ask, "but different people have different interpretations of that Scripture, so...." This is to misunderstand what Sola Scriptura is all about, but the "follow-up" often is asked anyway.

Or, take Sola Fide. While that's really clear cut, the mention of it often brings "So does that mean you can sin at will and you're going to be saved no matter what?" Or, a more reasonable question might be, "You're saved by faith, but can you ever lose it?

In all of these cases, the "follow-up" normally comes from a person who doubts or misunderstands the meaning of the sola.

I can understand your point. The issue I see is that Sola Fide and for that matter Sola Scriptura, is that depending upon what faith tradition you are from these ideas do have varying definitions. Sola Fide i.e. saved by faith alone, does not mean the same for Lutherans and Southern Baptists for example.

I remember a thread that I was involved in that just became crazy to debate, because you would have one poster say what you are saying is not Sola Fide, then you get their definition, start debating that definition, then another poster would chime in and say that isn't Sola Fide, and then you get another definition.

My point is that there are too many shades of gray when it comes to the Solas.

 

[Erose]

Chances of being saved? Salvation is not by chance. You need to reexamine your thinking. You can do nothing to help your salvation. Maybe you meant something different.

Would not accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior be classified as you doing something to help your salvation?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I don't see how emotions play a part in all of this. Also, profession alone is inadequate, action is needed.

And prayer for increased faith!

 

[Albion]

I can understand your point. The issue I see is that Sola Fide and for that matter Sola Scriptura, is that depending upon what faith tradition you are from these ideas do have varying definitions. Sola Fide i.e. saved by faith alone, does not mean the same for Lutherans and Southern Baptists for example.

I'd say it does. There are differences between such churches in ways that relate to Sola Fide, but both subscribe to the concept that we are saved by Faith by Grace and not by Works. It's after that point on which there is agreement that the separation occurs.

I remember a thread that I was involved in that just became crazy to debate, because you would have one poster say what you are saying is not Sola Fide, then you get their definition, start debating that definition, then another poster would chime in and say that isn't Sola Fide, and then you get another definition.

Not knowing that discussion myself, I wonder if it wasn't more a matter of one of then not actually understanding Sola Fide. That would be different from holding divergent view about it, although to hear them talk, it would seem that way. When Catholics disagree on some doctrine, the natural thing to do is refer to an official statement given by the Church, but when Protestants of different denominations do the same thing, of course, they tend not to do that, even if it would actually settle things.

My point is that there are too many shades of gray when it comes to the Solas.

...which I'd maintain can be understood in several ways. Are there actually different meanings for the term (no) or is it the case that the people doing the speaking have their own ideas of what it means to them or they simply haven't been educated sufficiently in the teachings of their own churches?

Lutherans and Southern Baptists--to use your example--ought to agree, if they're going by what their respective churches say about the term. And that's to say nothing of what the term means historically (which really is what defines it).

 

[PapaZoom]

Would not accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior be classified as you doing something to help your salvation?

John 6:44
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to take even a smidgen of credit for having been saved. It's like saying Jesus saves but only with our help or cooperation.

 

[Albion]

That's correct. Accepting Christ is not considered a "work" in theological terms. With regard to Faith, we do not earn merit by having performed an act of charity, etc.

 

[Erose]

I'd say it does. There are differences between such churches in ways that relate to Sola Fide, but both subscribe to the concept that we are saved by Faith by Grace and not by Works. It's after that point on which there is agreement that the separation occurs.

I think the disagreement is not just after the point, but also how those terms "faith", "grace" and "works" are defined.

...which I'd maintain can be understood in several ways. Are there actually different meanings for the term (no) or is it the case that the people doing the speaking have their own ideas of what it means to them or they simply haven't been educated sufficiently in the teachings of their own churches?

Perhaps.

Lutherans and Southern Baptists--to use your example--ought to agree, if they're going by what their respective churches say about the term. And that's to say nothing of what the term means historically (which really is what defines it).

The last I checked Lutherans do not adhere to "Once saved, always saved" which is a very important aspect of how Southern Baptists view Sola Fide. Then you throw in the differences on their theologies concerning baptism, there are significant differences.

 

[Erose]

John 6:44
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to take even a smidgen of credit for having been saved. It's like saying Jesus saves but only with our help or cooperation.

It also speaks of us choosing does it not? The Father can draw us to His Son, but He will not force us to choose Him. For us to daily pick up our cross and follow His Son, requires us to daily choose to pick up our cross and follow Him. For us to be saved requires two things, to a) believe and b) to be baptized. For us to be baptized requires us to choose to be baptized. God does not force us into that water. It is called a gift of grace for a reason. Yes it is a gift freely given by God, but we also have to freely receive that gift. If something is forced upon us, it ceases to be a gift.

The fact is that Scripture teaches that for us to be saved, there is something required from us, to accept that salvation. Salvation is not forced upon anyone. Yes the Father calls us, and draws us, and gives us the initial faith to believe and to freely choose Him or deny Him, and saves us, sustains us, and helps us grow in Him. Everything I have is from God, and my salvation is from Him, and Him alone; but He did not force this upon me. God doesn't want slaves, He wants children. Children can choose to stay go home, or leave. Slaves have no choice in the matter.

 

[Erose]

That's correct. Accepting Christ is not considered a "work" in theological terms. With regard to Faith, we do not earn merit by having performed an act of charity, etc.

It depends upon what you mean by merit.

 

[PapaZoom]

It also speaks of us choosing does it not? The Father can draw us to His Son, but He will not force us to choose Him. For us to daily pick up our cross and follow His Son, requires us to daily choose to pick up our cross and follow Him. For us to be saved requires two things, to a) believe and b) to be baptized. For us to be baptized requires us to choose to be baptized. God does not force us into that water. It is called a gift of grace for a reason. Yes it is a gift freely given by God, but we also have to freely receive that gift. If something is forced upon us, it ceases to be a gift.

The fact is that Scripture teaches that for us to be saved, there is something required from us, to accept that salvation. Salvation is not forced upon anyone. Yes the Father calls us, and draws us, and gives us the initial faith to believe and to freely choose Him or deny Him, and saves us, sustains us, and helps us grow in Him. Everything I have is from God, and my salvation is from Him, and Him alone; but He did not force this upon me. God doesn't want slaves, He wants children. Children can choose to stay go home, or leave. Slaves have no choice in the matter.

No one is suggesting we are forced into salvation. That misreprents the truth of God's grace. Our positive response to God's calling in no way earns us any part of salvation in Christ. yes you must believe. But apart from the Spirit, you can't even do that. No one can.

 

[anna ~ grace]

The issue may also have something to do with how salvation is defined. Catholic and Orthodox seem to view salvation as a journey made by grace through faith and works, day by day, in our prayer and daily lives and in the choices we make. Many Protestants seem to equate salvation with an initial trusting in Christ, and that this faith *is* what saves, apart from anything we do or do not do. One model might be likened to a climb up a mountain. Another to stepping onto a moving conveyer belt. In my study of Scripture, I can not concieve of the idea that our works in Christ and because of and for Him play no part in where we find ourselves after death.

 

[pehkay]

Hey, guys. So it's been a few years since I've been on these forums. Missed this fellowship! Just wanted to share a thought here. So after several years of studying Scripture, I've come to the point where I believe that our works in and for Christ do determine where we go after death. That faith, works, and grace are somehow all a vital, united whole that works out our salvation, in Christ. That salvation is not just initial conversion, but a daily process of discipleship, dying to self, love, devotion, and works of obedience. Any one else feel this way, even if you're technically "Protestant"?

Regarding eternal salvation in relation to the kingdom reward, I find that we must avoid extreme theological views. One extreme view insists that we are saved eternally and that we can lose neither our salvation nor the kingdom reward. The other extreme view claims that salvation is conditional upon good behavior and that we can lose both our salvation and the kingdom reward. The truth in the Bible is balanced: eternal salvation is by grace through faith, and it cannot be lost; the kingdom reward involves righteousness and works, and it can be forfeited.

From Matthew to Revelation, there is a line of thought concerning reward In Matthew 5 and 6 the Lord Jesus speaks repeatedly concerning reward (5:12, 46; 6:1-2, 5, 16). In 1 Corinthians 3:8 Paul says, “Each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.” Then in verse 14 he goes on to say, “If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.” In Revelation 22:12 the Lord Jesus says, “Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is.”

There is a great difference between salvation and reward. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9). This clearly and emphatically reveals that eternal salvation is altogether by grace through faith, having nothing to do with our works. Nothing that we have done, are doing, or will do can affect our eternal salvation (a gift) which is absolutely a matter of God’s grace (a gift) through our faith (a gift) in the Lord Jesus. God has imparted to us the ability to believe in the Lord Jesus, and by believing we are saved and have life in His name (Acts 16:31; John 20:31).

Once we have been saved, we cannot be lost; that is, we cannot suffer eternal perdition. Those who have been saved by grace through faith will never perish (John 10:28-29). Our eternal salvation is forever secured by the will of God, by the selection and calling of God, by the love and grace of God, by the righteousness of God, by the covenant of God, by the power of God, by the life of God, by God Himself, by the redemption of Christ, by the power of Christ, and by the promise of Christ. We have been born of God, and we cannot be unborn. By faith we have been joined to the Lord to become one spirit with Him in a marvelous organic union. This joining and union are eternally secure in the divine life.

A Reward according to Our Works

Hebrews 10:35 says, “Do not cast away therefore your boldness, which has great reward.” This reward is the kingdom reward, which is something in addition to eternal salvation. Whereas eternal salvation is by grace through faith, having nothing to do with our works, the kingdom reward is given for our work as believers in Christ. According to 1 Corinthians 3:8 we will be rewarded according to our labor, for the Lord will give to us according to our work (Rev. 22:12). Although we are saved, we may not receive the kingdom reward because we are devoid of the work which the Lord can approve (1 Cor. 3:15; Matt. 7:21-23). If we do not labor by the Lord’s all-sufficient grace to carry out His economy (1 Cor. 15:10; 2 Cor. 12:9) and if our work does not remain after it has been tried by fire, we will not receive the reward of the kingdom. It is contrary to the Scriptures to say that all believers will receive the kingdom reward no matter how they live and work after they are saved. The basic truth concerning the kingdom reward is this— receiving the kingdom reward is not a matter of God’s saving grace but of our subsequent work. If we are faithful servants in this age, we will enjoy the kingdom with the Lord in the coming age (Matt. 25:21, 23). If we are not faithful, we will suffer loss and undergo some kind of dispensational punishment (v. 30).

The kingdom reward will be decided at the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), where the Lord will “bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts” (1 Cor. 4:5). At His coming back, the Lord Jesus will set up His judgment seat and judge all the believers with respect to their life and work. There, at the judgment seat, the decision will be made regarding the kingdom reward, with the Lord, the righteous Judge, determining who will receive the kingdom reward (2 Tim. 4:8). Those who receive this reward will enter into the joy of the Lord and reign with Him as His co-kings, sitting with Him on His throne. This will be the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise in Revelation 3:21: “He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne.”

Moses looked away to the kingdom reward (Heb. 11:26) and Paul endeavored to obtain it (1 Cor. 9:24-27). Throughout the course of his Christian life, Paul was running the race for the kingdom reward, not having the assurance that he had laid hold of this reward. Only at the end of his life, immediately before his martyrdom, did he know for certain that the crown of righteousness had been prepared for him and for all who love the Lord’s appearing (2 Tim. 4:7-8). We may receive the kingdom reward or we may not. For all of us, this matter is pending the Lord’s decision at His judgment seat.