Rejecting Sola Fide

anna ~ grace

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Hey, guys. So it's been a few years since I've been on these forums. Missed this fellowship! Just wanted to share a thought here. So after several years of studying Scripture, I've come to the point where I believe that our works in and for Christ do determine where we go after death. That faith, works, and grace are somehow all a vital, united whole that works out our salvation, in Christ. That salvation is not just initial conversion, but a daily process of discipleship, dying to self, love, devotion, and works of obedience. Any one else feel this way, even if you're technically "Protestant"?
 

anna ~ grace

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Hey, ECR. I'm maybe kind of talking about something a bit different, though. More like salvation as a journey of faith and works through divine mercy, rather than a salvation followed by sanctification model. Though imho both ideas are painting portraits of the same experience. But with more or with less accuracy.
 
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Albion

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That faith, works, and grace are somehow all a vital, united whole that works out our salvation, in Christ. That salvation is not just initial conversion, but a daily process of discipleship, dying to self, love, devotion, and works of obedience. Any one else feel this way, even if you're technically "Protestant"?

The part of your statement I've highlighted in red leaves plenty of room for Protestants to agree. Therefore, I'm not sure that you're actually making a case against Sola Fide.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Hey, Albion. As I understand it, many Protestants would understand salvation as having faith, or trusting, followed by a process of sanctification, in which works are the evidence of salvation. But imho salvation is based upon what we do in and for Christ. I'd argue that works are not evidence of our salvation alone, but make up the process of our salvation. So I think you're right, many Protestants would use different terms to describe one thing. But it just seems that the Catholic explanation of salvation by grace through faith and works is more coherent than Protestant models of justification.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hey, Albion. As I understand it, many Protestants would understand salvation as having faith, or trusting, followed by a process of sanctification, in which works are the evidence of salvation. But imho salvation is based upon what we do in and for Christ. I'd argue that works are not evidence of our salvation alone, but make up the process of our salvation. So I think you're right, many Protestants would use different terms to describe one thing. But it just seems that the Catholic explanation of salvation by grace through faith and works is more coherent than Protestant models of justification.

That depends largely in the way in which "salvation" is being defined.

Our salvation has both to do with a Coram Deo and a Coram Hominibus dimension. That is, us before God and us before our fellow man. The vertical as well as the horizontal, if we want to put it that way.

Or as I heard it put there's our "saved from what" but also our "saved for what", and the answer to that second question can be seen in Ephesians 2:8-10,

"For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life." (verse 10)

We have been created in Christ Jesus for good works. The works themselves are not what align us rightly with God, but the works are there for us to do, and we must do them, for the good of our neighbor, for our neighbor (Coram Hominibus).

We are not justified, nor are we sanctified, through our own power and strength, as though through our works we can improve our standing before God, merit His favor, or win some eternal reward. We remain, in our power, sinners who can only pray, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner." Yet to good works are we called, and we must do them, as this is our calling and mission in Christ for the world for which we are being saved. And we will, at the end of this life, indeed at the end of all things, stand before the One who is Judge of both the living and the dead, and give an account.

But it was never our works, produced by sinful hearts and hands, which will have won us the love and mercy of God that is in Christ, nor which will have gotten us through to the end in which there is rest, peace, and the life everlasting. This will always have been God alone who has done these things for us, in Christ by whose death and resurrection He has redeemed the whole world, and by this grace saved you and me, sinners, through a faith granted to us by His mercy, to trust upon His beloved Son and hope, not in ourselves, but Him both now and our final day.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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Hey, Albion. As I understand it, many Protestants would understand salvation as having faith, or trusting, followed by a process of sanctification, in which works are the evidence of salvation. But imho salvation is based upon what we do in and for Christ. I'd argue that works are not evidence of our salvation alone, but make up the process of our salvation. So I think you're right, many Protestants would use different terms to describe one thing. But it just seems that the Catholic explanation of salvation by grace through faith and works is more coherent than Protestant models of justification.
Well, let me begin by saying that I think the Catholic POV is not in any way more coherent. Not in the least.

But as for the issue we were discussing (Sola Fide vs Works Righteousness) -- which has been discussed many times before here -- my comment was only to the effect that the way you worded your message, the part I put in red, looked very carefully chosen and, as it stands, could be accepted IMHO by a believer in Sola Fide. Consider my mention of it as just a footnote or a passing observation.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Albion ~ Thank you, Sir. Perhaps our understanding or vocabulary is not exactly the same, but we're essentially talking about the same thing. Do you personally believe that an individual is eternally secure through faith apart from works?
 
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Albion

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Albion ~ Thank you, Sir. Perhaps our understanding or vocabulary is not exactly the same, but we're essentially talking about the same thing. Do you personally believe that an individual is eternally secure through faith apart from works?
There's no "apart from works" in the matter. Faith produces works. The only question is whether the performance of works in itself enhances or increases the person's chances of being saved. I'd say "no" to that.
 
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Albion

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Ok, thank you for that answer! Helps me better grasp where you're coming from. In my understanding, our good works of obedience to Christ do increase our chances of being saved, so that's a point in which we differ.
Yep. It's a classic point of disagreement, and both sides can quote Bible verses that seem to support their view of the matter. :)

If I may add just one additional consideration, the churches that believe in Sola Fide do not deny that our works will be rewarded in heaven. This doesn't get talked about very much, but it's not a point that contradicts Sola Fide which concerns salvation, not the idea that some will be saved and be given more in the afterlife than some others who are also saved.
 
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Thursday

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Hey, guys. So it's been a few years since I've been on these forums. Missed this fellowship! Just wanted to share a thought here. So after several years of studying Scripture, I've come to the point where I believe that our works in and for Christ do determine where we go after death. That faith, works, and grace are somehow all a vital, united whole that works out our salvation, in Christ. That salvation is not just initial conversion, but a daily process of discipleship, dying to self, love, devotion, and works of obedience. Any one else feel this way, even if you're technically "Protestant"?


I agree, although I'm not protesting!

Here's a nice simple verse that sums it up for me:

Gal 5:6
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
 
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concretecamper

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Hey, guys. So it's been a few years since I've been on these forums. Missed this fellowship! Just wanted to share a thought here. So after several years of studying Scripture, I've come to the point where I believe that our works in and for Christ do determine where we go after death. That faith, works, and grace are somehow all a vital, united whole that works out our salvation, in Christ. That salvation is not just initial conversion, but a daily process of discipleship, dying to self, love, devotion, and works of obedience. Any one else feel this way, even if you're technically "Protestant"?

Faith is first and as I believe you are implying does not necessarily produce good works. Good works is a choice. Good works alone does no good either. An atheist can do good works but to no benefit. It takes both faith and works.
 
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hedrick

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Hey, guys. So it's been a few years since I've been on these forums. Missed this fellowship! Just wanted to share a thought here. So after several years of studying Scripture, I've come to the point where I believe that our works in and for Christ do determine where we go after death. That faith, works, and grace are somehow all a vital, united whole that works out our salvation, in Christ. That salvation is not just initial conversion, but a daily process of discipleship, dying to self, love, devotion, and works of obedience. Any one else feel this way, even if you're technically "Protestant"?
Calvin is generally understood to have defined salvation as including both justification and our life in Christ. Justification is based on God's commitment to us. It remains even when we sin. It's the ground under us, which we can rely on. But God's purpose is to completely undo the Fall, fully restoring his image. Salvation includes that full restoration. Of course it won't be complete in this life.

Many scholars will tell you that both Jesus and Paul taught justification by faith but judgement by works. If you think that salvation is just meeting the minimal conditions for avoiding hell, that would seem self-contradictory. But with a fuller understanding it make sense. There are several ways of understanding it. But I think of parents, who accept and admire artwork produced by little kids that by any objective standard aren't very good, but within their relationship are the signs of love.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Ok, thank you for that answer! Helps me better grasp where you're coming from. In my understanding, our good works of obedience to Christ do increase our chances of being saved, so that's a point in which we differ.
Same chance really, imo. We are saved at conversion through justification, right? But we gain in our devotion and use for God as we surrender to sanctification. You are either saved or not and while I don't think you can easily grieve the Spirit away, perhaps a lack of fruits would indicate a grievance of the Spirit in the walk...

Btw, I think the word "fruits" better captures the essence of what Christ is talking about, more encompassing in it's meaning. Works suggests outward action while fruits connotates inward and outward.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Faith is first and as I believe you are implying does not necessarily produce good works. Good works is a choice. Good works alone does no good either. An atheist can do good works but to no benefit. It takes both faith and works.
The difference of good works done by an atheist and a child of God is not seen by man because it is born of a changed spirit through faith. Someone that is not motivated by God's love will crumble when enough pressure is applied... not so with God's true people, a read of the faith of the martyrs will prove that.
 
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Erose

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I think this highlights some general issues when discussing the Solas. Even though Protestants universally, I believe, accept the 5 Solas, how these Solas are understood, I think one find a very wide range of shades of gray. Thus the issue of discussing them.
 
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