Reintroducing myself :)

[owenlikesknowing]

Hi everyone, I havn't been on this for quite a while. I've missed it

(this is only a (re)introduction - my questions will be on my next thread if you want to skip ahead)

Before now I posted my questions on several threads, some trivial, some important, and managing them all was impossible for me. So now I have resolved to confine everything to this one thread, even if I may have posted them in other threads - hope thats ok?

Before I begin, I would like to (as per usual) set out my intentions. I'm not here like some of the atheists and agnostics on here to satisfy my ego and I don't support doing so. I'm here because I am genuinely curious, and in my opinion my life would be a lot easier were I Christian. I look for a way to logically become one although I'm unsure if this is possible? If this fails I want to understand any alternative method(s).

In advance, I would like to thank and apologise to all those who respond to me. I thank because it will take a lot of patience to stick with me - if I don't understand something I really will focus on it until I understand it completely. I apologise because I know that sometimes I can get into heated debates, where I am unnecessarily harsh or insensitive. This is not my intention in the slightest.

My next post contains the first of my questions.

Thanks,
Owen.

 

[owenlikesknowing]

Oh here goes Part number 1

First of all I said that

"I look for a way to logically become [a Christian] although I'm unsure if this is possible."

So far I have come across one of the best (I think) logical arguments for a God: the cause of the big bang. However I don't see:

1. How this or anything else points to a Christian God over a random quantum force.

2. How the universe is a "cause and effect" i.e. deterministic universe (and so a being that is not determined must have caused it). Nothing is truly deterministic. Random things occur at the quantum level, hence the deterministic(ish) laws of the universe don't apply near a singularity. The only way I can see around this is that whatever causes the randomness to occur at quantum level is too caused by God. This I can accept, as its the only way logically god can be "everywhere." Like the Bible claims. Do you agree?


Anyway are there any other 100% LOGICAL reasons for belief in God, i.e. things that don't involve faith

 

[Ih8s8n]

Owen: First of all, welcome back.

Anyway are there any other 100% LOGICAL reasons for belief in God, i.e. things that don't involve faith?

This question leads me to believe that you have a faulty understanding of Biblical "faith". "Faith" is NOT just a belief in something, but rather a confident expectation from SOMEONE WHOM YOU KNOW. In other words, God strives with individuals via the Holy Spirit and desires to draw them unto Himself through Jesus Christ. This "drawing", of course, ultimately requires true repentance on the part of the individual being drawn and an acceptance of Jesus Christ as their "scapegoat" or substitutionary sacrifice for their sins. Should one genuinely meet such conditions, then God promises the "new birth" or the born again experience in which such an individual is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, making their body the very temple of the Lord. The Bible uses such imagery as a "marriage" to describe the type of covenant relationship that God desires with His people. A covenant relationship where the two become one. This is A LOT more than the type of "faith" that you seem to be describing. Your "faith" sounds more like "wishful thinking" or just the acceptance of some sort of intellectual argument APART FROM any true contact/interaction with God. Well, I hope that I didn't derail your thoughts. Then again, I hope that I did to some extent. Take care.

 

[98cwitr]

How do you know the Big Bang happened?

 

[owenlikesknowing]

Owen: First of all, welcome back.

Thanks and I'm glad to be back

you have a faulty understanding of Biblical "faith".

I probably do - I'm trying to understand. I'm slow - bear with me.

I don't understand how one comes to believe in God through faith if it is, as you say

"a confident expectation from SOMEONE WHOM YOU KNOW."

If you don't know God at the time - how to you come to him through "faith?"

Thanks

 

[owenlikesknowing]

How do you know the Big Bang happened?

I study physics. I have observed many (but certainly not all) of its proofs. However there are other scientific facts that I have not studied but that I hold as true - I assume you are trying to say I believe in them by faith yes?

Btw thanks for replying

Edit: oh and paramore is a damn good band

 

[Ih8s8n]

I probably do - I'm trying to understand. I'm slow - bear with me.

Owen: No problem. I'm not exactly "Speedy Gonzalez" myself.

I don't understand how one comes to believe in God through faith if it is, as you say

"a confident expectation from SOMEONE WHOM YOU KNOW."
​

If you don't know God at the time - how to you come to him through "faith?"

For starters, Jesus said:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)

Again, we read:

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (I Corinthians 12:3)

Scriptures such as these indicate that God needs to draw us unto Himself by the Holy Spirit. In scripture, the Holy Spirit (and those who are being led by Him) is sometimes likened to wind that is blowing:

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:7-8)

With this imagery of the Holy Spirit being likened to "wind" in your mind, please consider with me the following:

There are two men sitting in two different types of boats. The first man is sitting in a rowboat and not only needs to rely on his own strength to reach his desired destination, but he can also start rowing whenever he desires to do so. The second man is sitting in a sailboat and needs to hoist his sails whenever the wind is blowing. Unlike the first man, he is totally dependant upon the wind to "set sail".

My point is this:

We cannot come to God in our own strength and on our own timetables.

Like the second man in the sailboat, we need to "hoist our sails", spiritually speaking, when the Spirit "blows" or when God is drawing us unto Himself by the Holy Spirit. In other words, there needs to be an actual drawing by God in order for one to genuinely be saved. The type of "faith" that you seemingly described requires no such drawing. It's a "faith" that is based solely on intellectualism, apart from any direct contact with God Himself.

If you don't know God at the time - how to you come to him through "faith?"

That's the point...you can't. Much of today's "evangelizing" is solely the work of men. At best, all that another human can do in regards to someone else's salvation is to "plant seed" (preach the Word) and "water it" (preach some more). The "increase" MUST come from God Himself. In other words, the Holy Spirit can act upon the "seed" that has been "planted" and "watered" by actively drawing one back to the Father through Christ. This, of course, involves direct contact with God. When this happens (and it must), then you can have "faith" in the One Who is drawing you back unto Himself. I hope that this makes some sense... In any case, Biblical Christianity is a lot more than just some intellectual argument. As I said before, it's two (God and man) becoming one. Take care.

 

[Sketcher]

So far I have come across one of the best (I think) logical arguments for a God: the cause of the big bang. However I don't see:

1. How this or anything else points to a Christian God over a random quantum force.

Well, that alone will not. It doesn't tell you anything of the character of God, the longevity of God, the personal interest that God has in his creation, etc. But it makes more sense to me and a lot of people that the universe was a product of design rather than random chance. And that's a good place to start.

2. How the universe is a "cause and effect" i.e. deterministic universe (and so a being that is not determined must have caused it). Nothing is truly deterministic. Random things occur at the quantum level, hence the deterministic(ish) laws of the universe don't apply near a singularity. The only way I can see around this is that whatever causes the randomness to occur at quantum level is too caused by God. This I can accept, as its the only way logically god can be "everywhere." Like the Bible claims. Do you agree?

I don't believe it's the only logical way that God can be everywhere, since we're talking about a spiritual being here. But quantum "randomness" being caused and in fact planned by God is something that I can accept. Since I believe in God, I don't believe in true randomness, not on a scale like that. It makes sense to me that where we simply see mysterious causes and other events, atheists would take the next step and assign it to random chance. And that sounds like faith to me.

 

[Ih8s8n]

How do you know the Big Bang happened?

I study physics. I have observed many (but certainly not all) of its proofs. However there are other scientific facts that I have not studied but that I hold as true - I assume you are trying to say I believe in them by faith yes?

Owen: Are you familiar with the following?
​

Big Bang's Afterglow Fails Intergalactic 'Shadow' Test

Take care.

P.S. I've got to run out for a while. I'll check back later. Until then...

 

[owenlikesknowing]

Thank you all for your replies

Ill respond to them in reverse order because that is the order i am reading

Ih8s8n - It surprises me that a Christian is arguing against the big bang theory if I'm honest. However bear in mind that that article was written in 2006 and there has been no real "controversy" surrounding it, like it claimed there would be. Ill be honest I have not read the full article, but I promise you I will when I have a bit more time.

Sketcher

I don't believe it's the only logical way that God can be everywhere, since we're talking about a spiritual being here. But quantum "randomness" being caused and in fact planned by God is something that I can accept. Since I believe in God, I don't believe in true randomness, not on a scale like that. It makes sense to me that where we simply see mysterious causes and other events, atheists would take the next step and assign it to random chance. And that sounds like faith to me.

I understand your interpretation. Apart from the last bit. Faith = certainty, and scientists are never certain about anything although they might act like it sometimes

Oh Ih8s8n again

A nice analogy Am I correct in saying that you need faith to "set up your sails" - yes? This faith comes from God? Hearing about God from people who preach?

Its a complex topic lol

Thanks all,
Owen.

 

[razeontherock]

I don't see:

1. How this or anything else points to a Christian God over a random quantum force.

Anyway are there any other 100% LOGICAL reasons for belief in God, i.e. things that don't involve faith

Hi Owen! I came to Christ through logic. I see Faith as the eyes of our Spirit, and I think that holds up to thorough scrutiny of Scripture. I'm not a trusting person. I don't put my weight on something if I think it will collapse, I test it first. I see G-d clearly telling us to be that way, Spiritually. So I think you have a good approach!

Life truly is not random.

You're going to have to define what the term "G-d" means. You'll notice I don't even spell that out anymore, reminding me we really don't know so much. I think this is VERY important! (The concept, not the spelling)

The singularity of BBT had a tremendous amount of power, yes? That power = G-d.

From there, I don't see a way of getting past natural observation (which is a perfectly legitimate way of understanding G-d, albeit impersonal and overwhelming) w/o this:

"And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:" Romans 1:4

Make sense?

 

[drich0150]

Hi everyone, I havn't been on this for quite a while. I've missed it

(this is only a (re)introduction - my questions will be on my next thread if you want to skip ahead)

Before now I posted my questions on several threads, some trivial, some important, and managing them all was impossible for me. So now I have resolved to confine everything to this one thread, even if I may have posted them in other threads - hope thats ok?

Before I begin, I would like to (as per usual) set out my intentions. I'm not here like some of the atheists and agnostics on here to satisfy my ego and I don't support doing so. I'm here because I am genuinely curious, and in my opinion my life would be a lot easier were I Christian. I look for a way to logically become one although I'm unsure if this is possible? If this fails I want to understand any alternative method(s).

In advance, I would like to thank and apologise to all those who respond to me. I thank because it will take a lot of patience to stick with me - if I don't understand something I really will focus on it until I understand it completely. I apologise because I know that sometimes I can get into heated debates, where I am unnecessarily harsh or insensitive. This is not my intention in the slightest.

My next post contains the first of my questions.

Thanks,
Owen.

Welcome back and I do look forward to your questions.

 

[drich0150]

1. How this or anything else points to a Christian God over a random quantum force.

Why do you believe this force to be random, because the "theory" states it to be?

2. How the universe is a "cause and effect" i.e. deterministic universe (and so a being that is not determined must have caused it). Nothing is truly deterministic. Random things occur at the quantum level, hence the deterministic(ish) laws of the universe don't apply near a singularity. The only way I can see around this is that whatever causes the randomness to occur at quantum level is too caused by God. This I can accept, as its the only way logically god can be "everywhere." Like the Bible claims. Do you agree?

If A blind man Hears the depth and scale of bird's song, above and beyond what a man with his sight can, and decides to attribute the song bird's effort to God. Then how can the man with sight argue?

If God has given you the ability to see Him where most can not, then why look to us for verification?

Anyway are there any other 100% LOGICAL reasons for belief in God, i.e. things that don't involve faith

Maybe you should tell us.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Ih8s8n - It surprises me that a Christian is arguing against the big bang theory if I'm honest.

Owen: Why is that? Because the theory was started by a Roman Catholic priest? If such is the case, then I'm not a Roman Catholic nor do I adhere to any theory that seems utterly ridiculous to me. For instance, where did the matter come from that supposedly went "Bang!". I assume that you'll ask me where God came from...

However bear in mind that that article was written in 2006 and there has been no real "controversy" surrounding it, like it claimed there would be. Ill be honest I have not read the full article, but I promise you I will when I have a bit more time.

I would suggest to you that the lack of "controversy" is two-fold:

1. A lot of people are ignorant of this finding.
2. A lot of people just dismiss/ignore anything that doesn't line up with their BELIEFS.

Anyhow, I'm glad that you'll read the article in its entirety at a later time. By the way, and I hope that I'm not out of line by saying this, but I also found something rather "surprising" in your opening post on this thread. You're from Northern Ireland and you said:

...and in my opinion my life would be a lot easier were I Christian.

With all of the bloodshed in Northern Ireland over the years that has been at least partly related to "religion", why do you suppose that life would be a lot easier if you were a Christian? I'm genuinely curious...I'm not trying to be the least bit antagonistic. Thanks.

A nice analogy.

I agree, but it didn't originate with me. I read it years ago in a tract from an old time preacher (I think he lived a couple of hundred years ago) entitled, "The Dangers of Delaying Repentance." His point was that we'd better "hoist our sails" when "the Spirit blows" or else we'll never be able to get to God on our own. Personally, I agree.

"While it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:15)

Am I correct in saying that you need faith to "set up your sails" - yes? This faith comes from God? Hearing about God from people who preach?

I would have to answer both "Yes" and "No".

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." (Romans 10:13-21)

On the one hand, "faith does come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". However, on the other hand, this "faith" is NOT automatic. Many have heard the Word and willfully rejected it for one reason or another. We can discuss some of those reasons, if you'd like.

Its a complex topic lol

Actually, I think that we can pretty much narrow it down to two types of people. From God's perspective (which is really the only perspective that matters in the long run), His Word is "the sword of the Spirit"(Ephesians 6:17) and it is "quick and powerful, and sharper than a two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart"(Hebrews 4:12). God's Word "cuts people in the heart". Scripturally speaking (and I fully believe that this is how it is in real life), when "cut" by God's Word, there are basically only two different reactions.

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." (Acts 2:37-41)

These three thousand were "cut" or "pricked in their hearts" by the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God and they gladly received the Word and repented and were baptized. Conversely, we read:

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them." (Acts 5:29-33)

Here we see that those who were "cut to the heart" wanted to kill those who spoke God's Word to them. Like I said, "faith" isn't automatic. The will of the hearers definitely plays a part where salvation is concerned. I could cite you other examples such as these, but I trust that you understand my point. If not, then ask on and I'll elaborate further. Thanks.

P.S. The reason that I asked about why you think that becoming a Christian would make your life easier has to do with the PROMISED persecution that awaits true disciples of Jesus. Sure, your life would be/will be "easier" in the sense that you'll have God's wisdom and power at your disposal (not to mention the hope of eternal life), but, at the same time, it's not going to be a picnic by any means. I don't say this to dissuade you...simply to inform you. To me, the title of a book that I once read says it all:

"This World: Playground or Battleground?" - A.W. Tozer

It's definitely not a playground. Satan exists (and so do demons) and following Christ will immediately enlist you into this WAR. Once again, I don't say this to either frighten you or dissuade you, but merely to inform. God's grace is sufficient.

 

[owenlikesknowing]

Thanks for replies guys

Razeontherock -

Yea I totally see where your coming from. I find it weird that there are black holes that have the same amout of energy - why would God manifest himself in such a strange form? But hey we know so little and "G-d" to use your term can work in mysterious ways - yes?

To an extent I can understand the Christian viewpoint - I think many people may actually believe in the thing that caused the big bang - but call it by a different name other than God. As a physicist I am constantly in awe of the complexity of the universe and particularly the things that are the driving force behind nature.

Were I to accept that something supernatural caused the universe (something that I still am unsure about, but Ill come back to that later) which could easily happen, my main problem with Christianity is.... How do I know its a Christian God and not a Muslim one or Buddhist, or as many physicists see it, a force above nature?

Drich

Welcome back and I do look forward to your questions.

Thank'n you Drich

I find this Force (if indeed it is a force) to be random, indeed because the theory states it to be and that its more likely in my eyes. Similarly I believe the world is round because the theory states it to be.

I have personally carried out some experiments that show that it appears to be random. It seems more likely to me than God, as he is presented to me (i.e. in human form as an entity etc.).

Why does this "Force" have to be an entity, with conscious, instead of merely a force? Why is it Christian, and not buddhist or hindu as I said?

 

[owenlikesknowing]

Ih8s8n

Owen: Why is that? Because the theory was started by a Roman Catholic priest? If such is the case, then I'm not a Roman Catholic nor do I adhere to any theory that seems utterly ridiculous to me. For instance, where did the matter come from that supposedly went "Bang!". I assume that you'll ask me where God came from...

No no no! Not what I meant at all, I meant that the theory is scientific proof that everything was created at one point, and that the universe could not have existed forever, like those that argued against theists postulated back in the day.

Many things that are complex may seem ridiculous but are probably true, when backed up by enough scientific evidence, i.e. (and I always use these examples, but there are many others) The idea that mass warps space time, or that the world is round.

1. A lot of people are ignorant of this finding.
2. A lot of people just dismiss/ignore anything that doesn't line up with their BELIEFS.

Indeed - however most scientists actually dislike the idea of BBT (particularly atheists) wishing that they could prove the universe was never created. Imo many would love this idea and would fit in with their beliefs.

On the other hand there is this one article, against i do not exaggerate when I say that there are thousands of articles showing proofs for the BBT - Can you understand my scepticism?


On the point you raised about Northern Ireland (Theres really not a problem with it mate ) - really true Christians wouldn't imo take part in the violence - it was not religious problems we had but gang warfare. For example people who were atheists back then were asked were the protestant atheists or catholic ones. Anyway that was a long time ago, well before my time.

If your truly interested in why it is important to me, perhaps you should read my old threadfound in the link below, but I would ask you not to post in it - I would prefer it were it not reactivated

http://www.christianforums.com/t7439479/

Hey I really have got REALLY tired at the moment - and I'm heading to Belfast tomorrow morning to see my girlfriend, I didn't think this comment was going to be as long as it was - can you forgive me if I continue it maybe in a couple of days time (assuming I don't get internet there, which I might do). Apologies Ill get back to you asap, and read your article.

Sorry again,
Owen.

 

[drich0150]

Why does this "Force" have to be an entity, with conscious, instead of merely a force? Why is it Christian, and not buddhist or hindu as I said?

The obvious reason? Because the force said so..

What changes for you in believing the Force is indeed an entity?

 

[Joveia]

Oh here goes Part number 1

So far I have come across one of the best (I think) logical arguments for a God: the cause of the big bang. However I don't see:

1. How this or anything else points to a Christian God over a random quantum force.

2. How the universe is a "cause and effect" i.e. deterministic universe (and so a being that is not determined must have caused it). Nothing is truly deterministic. Random things occur at the quantum level, hence the deterministic(ish) laws of the universe don't apply near a singularity. The only way I can see around this is that whatever causes the randomness to occur at quantum level is too caused by God. This I can accept, as its the only way logically god can be "everywhere." Like the Bible claims. Do you agree?

Anyway are there any other 100% LOGICAL reasons for belief in God, i.e. things that don't involve faith

I think if a random quantum fluctuation caused the universe then that implies that something else existed before the big bang. This is because quantum fluctuations occurring in a vacuum could be analogised, surely, to a bank account with no money in it. Let's say I have nothing in my bank account - I still have a bank account. So if you have quantum fluctuations occurring in a vacuum, you still have a vacuum, not nothing. So there must be some vacuum for the big bang fluctuations to exist in, which implies some kind of previous 'world' of some sort. Perhaps it's another universe, or a multiverse?

In any case, this makes sense as an idea, but it really pushes the problem of explaining existence one step back. And it also makes the step back completely unobservable, even in principle, because we can never access this 'pre-universe' place.

 

[razeontherock]

Random things occur at the quantum level, hence the deterministic(ish) laws of the universe don't apply near a singularity. The only way I can see around this is that whatever causes the randomness to occur at quantum level is too caused by God.

I don't know if you're ready to hear this, but everything about string theory lines up perfectly with the Bible. If super strings are either G-d or His control mechanism that's the only way I can comprehend many things in the Bible.

I find it weird that there are black holes that have the same amout of energy

You're the expert here, but I find it hard to believe every black hole has the same amount of energy that the singularity of the BBT did. I'll stick my neck out and say they couldn't possibly, e = mc squared and all.

many people may actually believe in the thing that caused the big bang - but call it by a different name other than God.

Which scientist said "if there is a God, it must be far greater than we've ever imagined?" Smart man.

my main problem with Christianity is.... How do I know its a Christian God and not a Muslim one or Buddhist, or as many physicists see it, a force above nature?

Go with the last one. Jesus taught that heaven is ABOVE nature, and He wasn't a Christian. I think it's obvious the same G-d has been speaking w/ all of mankind all along. The only thing different about Christianity is the empty tomb. Romans 1:4 again "And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"

Think about it. Ev theory can't explain our conscience. We're talking about the Creator of life here; it applies.

It seems more likely to me than God, as he is presented to me (i.e. in human form as an entity etc.).

Why does this "Force" have to be an entity, with conscious, instead of merely a force? Why is it Christian, and not buddhist or hindu as I said?

If you dissect my screen name, you'll see the first thing I think needs to be done is to de-construct the garbage society has fed us. The monty python-esque cardboard cutout of the old guy with a beard that just wants to make sure you never have any fun doesn't exist.

Even if we could take this "force" and explain our existence via completely natural means, (which I trust you know we're a long way from doing) that would in no way "disprove" G-d. It would just show us how He did it.

Prov 25:2 "God delights in concealing things, scientists delight in discovering things." To paraphrase, the reason you like knowing is because G-d put that desire in you.

The benefits of Buddhism (etc) were fully functional in Jesus, in order for Him to be able to do what He did.

 

[Sir Wilshire]

1. How this or anything else points to a Christian God over a random quantum force.

Christians don't or shouldn't argue that it points to the Christian God. Only theism in general. We believe that God is the Christian one because of one event, namely Jesus' resurrection. Of course, we have evidence that Jesus claimed that a specific God would do this. Yahweh, the Judeo-Christian God. Also, faith as defined by the first Christians was something based on evidence. It is placing your trust/loyalty on Jesus to save you from your sins and to live by his grace (unmerited favor) based on evidence of reliability. This evidence is his resurrection. If he wasn't raised, there would be no Christianity. If his resurrection really did happen in history, then that should be the decider for following him.

2. How the universe is a "cause and effect" i.e. deterministic universe (and so a being that is not determined must have caused it). Nothing is truly deterministic. Random things occur at the quantum level, hence the deterministic(ish) laws of the universe don't apply near a singularity. The only way I can see around this is that whatever causes the randomness to occur at quantum level is too caused by God. This I can accept, as its the only way logically god can be "everywhere." Like the Bible claims. Do you agree?

The Christian view of the universe is that God is neither letting it run by itself or directly causing everything to happen. He sustains its existence by his power. He is in essence, causes it operate, and it would immediately stop existing if he stopped sustaining it. This is why Scripture will say things like that he sends the rain, and forms the babies in their wombs. It's still true even though we know of processes that accomplish these things. He isn't just doing things where there are gaps in our understanding, but doing things in everything. I should note that this view also provides no impediment to scientific enquiry, but should in fact encourage it because we believe a rational, ordered God is responsible for all that exists. I will also note that people didn't make the natural/supernatural distinction until the 17th century.