Regulative Principle of Worship

[Bluelion]

I only listened to it for about a minute. I do not think it is appropriate for morning worship and is theologically soft.

well that is a shame that loving God is not appropriate for "church". But traditional hyms are like amazing grace? sounds like your traditionalist. I don't think traditions are how we are to worship God.

 

[JM]

well that is a shame that loving God is not appropriate for "church". But traditional hyms are like amazing grace? sounds like your traditionalist. I don't think traditions are how we are to worship God.

Think about your own words, "you miss my whole point if you are truly loving God you will be worshiping Him according to his ways."

 

[Bluelion]

Think about your own words, "you miss my whole point if you are truly loving God you will be worshiping Him according to his ways."

and You don't think praising God is according to His ways? It could be augured that no modern music of any kind be allowed and only Psalms be sang. That kind of faith is dead. So what if i take the Psalms and relate them to life today in praise of God, that is living worship. The worship your speaking of is not by spirit but by this world, or at least that is what it seems. You want rules laid out and rituals, Catholics are good at that so why a baptist?

I could also argue that if You going to follow a code of worship as laid out by the Bible you should also follow the food laws.

 

[JM]

Blue, you should learn to read what is posted and not read your own thoughts into the post. It's a simple skill to learn. I know you can develop it with time and practice.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Bluelion]

Blue, you should learn to read what is posted and not read your own thoughts into the post. It's a simple skill to learn. I know you can develop it with time and practice.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

thanks for the answer

 

[Bluelion]

thanks for the answer

when i ask questions you don't answer them, what then else can i do but interpret your meaning with the info I have?

If you want to discuss it great, if not fine.

 

[now faith]

Blue, I don't believe you are being fair in this discussion. Mike tried to explain further but it seems you have misunderstood or ignored his comments. We worship God in love according to His word and not our individual preferences...we worship God in Jesus Christ according to His preferences.

Is this worship?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2V7KbbfRHA

http://biblia.com/bible/esv/1 John 5.3

It depends, on how each person understands the measure of Faith that lives in us.


Ephesians: 3. 17. That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18. May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19. And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21. Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[JM]

Samuel Waldron explains using the following example. Mr. Anglican represents the normative principle. Mr. Puritan represents the regulative principle.

"Mr Anglican must use the materials of the Word of God, but has no blueprint and may use other materials. Mr. Puritan must use only materials of the Word of God and has a blueprint. It takes no special genius to discern which will be more pleasing to God."

Other points made by Waldron:

- God alone is to determine how the sinner approaches God in worship
- extra biblical practices usually tend to nullify true biblical worship (see video I posted earlier of holy laughter)
- we call into question the sufficiency of scripture when we add or make additions to the biblical norm
- the Bible explicity condemns all worship that is not commanded (Waldron lists the following scriptures: Lev. 10.1-3; Deut. 4.2, 12.29-32, 17.3; Josh. 1.7, 23.6-8; Matt. 15.13; Col. 2.20-23)
- how God is to be worship is explained here Deut. 12.29-32

John Owen, " Three things are usually pleaded in the justification of the observance of such rites and ceremonies in the worship of God: First, that they tend unto the furtherance of the devotion of the worshipers; secondly, that they render the worship itself comely and beautiful; thirdly, that they are the preservers of order in the celebration thereof. And therefore on these accounts they may be instituted or appointed by some, and observed by all."

(Blue, Owen is addressing the issue you tried to thrust upon me when you wrote, "You want rules laid out and rituals, Catholics are good at that so why a baptist?" Owen recognizes that some are changing the biblical order and practice by instituting what they like forcing others to observe and practice it. I see the regulative principle as freeing me from observing false traditions, human forms of piety, etc.)

Owen hits the nail on the head with swift efficiency. All three points tend toward the preferences of man, they are man centered, rather than centered in the word of God.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Bluelion]

There really is no disagreement between us JM. I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

God has commanded us to follow Him out of Love, to serve Him in Love, and remain in that Love His and ours He gives us.

Of course we follow God's word, i personally believe God's word is all complete and deals with every situation that could ever possibly come up.

You did not think the song i post was for worship, but I argue it is worship of God. If you had listen to the whole thing there are references to scripture and every bit of it is about God as the focus not the singer. He is praising God in that song. You say not in church i say why not? But Amazing graze is fine in church, I have sang it before in a SBC which I grew up in. Now why is Amazing grace ok and not strong enough. The song is all about realizing you can't do it and surrendering to God. It even says in it I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength. That is scripture. The song has meaning to me, i was trying to help some people and slip my self into a depression, nothing was working and then i heard that song on the radio and it was like my words to God, It was a prayer I was trying to pray but could not find the right words and it pulled me out of depression in 5 mins. It could do that because it had God as the center, it was a bridge, reconnecting me back to God. So why not that song in church?

When I say we worship out of Love you say we follow God's word, the two are not opposites but go together. If you love God you will follow His word.

WHat I am trying to figure out is what church service you think the Bible lays out? Say this man says Sunday is a Holy day I say its the day I spend resting and in worship of God that it does not matter which day of the week I take or if it is the same day even. That is worshiping God in Spirit, but as Paul said you should not do what you believe is wrong in your heart, but Paul also pointed out how the strong in faith suffer because of those weak in faith, not that they are a burden, but because they judge the strong in faith, and like wise the strong in faith cast stumbling blocks before the weak for they do not understand. God forbid i be a stumbling block to you. If you believe it is wrong it is wrong for you to do it, but don't judge others who might have stronger faith.

Paul argued in Romans we need to stop judging each other and that is what I was referring to is Romans when i said Paul said. It is wrong to do what we believe is wrong, and it is wrong to judge our Christian brothers and sisters. So what if they have that music, don't go to that church go to one more suited for you, but don't judge them.

Wow i guess i did learn something in my class after all, awesome. Hear i thought I was killing my self for this class and had nothing to show for it.

Peace and Love
blu

 

[twin1954]

There really is no disagreement between us JM. I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

God has commanded us to follow Him out of Love, to serve Him in Love, and remain in that Love His and ours He gives us.

Of course we follow God's word, i personally believe God's word is all complete and deals with every situation that could ever possibly come up.

You did not think the song i post was for worship, but I argue it is worship of God. If you had listen to the whole thing there are references to scripture and every bit of it is about God as the focus not the singer. He is praising God in that song. You say not in church i say why not? But Amazing graze is fine in church, I have sang it before in a SBC which I grew up in. Now why is Amazing grace ok and not strong enough. The song is all about realizing you can't do it and surrendering to God. It even says in it I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength. That is scripture. The song has meaning to me, i was trying to help some people and slip my self into a depression, nothing was working and then i heard that song on the radio and it was like my words to God, It was a prayer I was trying to pray but could not find the right words and it pulled me out of depression in 5 mins. It could do that because it had God as the center, it was a bridge, reconnecting me back to God. So why not that song in church?

When I say we worship out of Love you say we follow God's word, the two are not opposites but go together. If you love God you will follow His word.

WHat I am trying to figure out is what church service you think the Bible lays out? Say this man says Sunday is a Holy day I say its the day I spend resting and in worship of God that it does not matter which day of the week I take or if it is the same day even. That is worshiping God in Spirit, but as Paul said you should not do what you believe is wrong in your heart, but Paul also pointed out how the strong in faith suffer because of those weak in faith, not that they are a burden, but because they judge the strong in faith, and like wise the strong in faith cast stumbling blocks before the weak for they do not understand. God forbid i be a stumbling block to you. If you believe it is wrong it is wrong for you to do it, but don't judge others who might have stronger faith.

Paul argued in Romans we need to stop judging each other and that is what I was referring to is Romans when i said Paul said. It is wrong to do what we believe is wrong, and it is wrong to judge our Christian brothers and sisters. So what if they have that music, don't go to that church go to one more suited for you, but don't judge them.

Wow i guess i did learn something in my class after all, awesome. Hear i thought I was killing my self for this class and had nothing to show for it.

Peace and Love
blu

Uzzah loved and thought he was worshipping God but when he put his hand to the Ark to keep it from falling off the cart it was on God killed him. 1Chron. 13:2-12

David later said that the Lord brought this breach upon us, the killing of Uzza, because we sought Him not after the due order.1Chron. 15:13

You see it is important to seek the Lord and worship Him according to the manner He has prescribed. We can't come to the Lord any way we wish nor can we worship Him in any way other than the way He has given us in the New Testament Scriptures.


Having said that I am also aware that no one follows the Regulative Principle strictly. It simply can't be done.

 

[now faith]

I enjoy the accounts of what happened to those who stole the Ark of the Covenant.
They wish they had not and suffered for it,the Spirit of God will not be a thing to be trifled with.
How Amazing Grace was written is a powerful testimony as well.

A evil slave captain at one time would kick the soap boxes out from under Preachers on the docks at port.

He found the Lord and became one of those Preachers.
Reflecting back he is astonished at God's mercy.

Even though I found the Lord at a young age I walked out of his will a long time,as well I am also thankful for his Grace and Mercy.

 

[now faith]

Samuel Waldron explains using the following example. Mr. Anglican represents the normative principle. Mr. Puritan represents the regulative principle.

"Mr Anglican must use the materials of the Word of God, but has no blueprint and may use other materials. Mr. Puritan must use only materials of the Word of God and has a blueprint. It takes no special genius to discern which will be more pleasing to God."

Other points made by Waldron:

- God alone is to determine how the sinner approaches God in worship
- extra biblical practices usually tend to nullify true biblical worship (see video I posted earlier of holy laughter)
- we call into question the sufficiency of scripture when we add or make additions to the biblical norm
- the Bible explicity condemns all worship that is not commanded (Waldron lists the following scriptures: Lev. 10.1-3; Deut. 4.2, 12.29-32, 17.3; Josh. 1.7, 23.6-8; Matt. 15.13; Col. 2.20-23)
- how God is to be worship is explained here Deut. 12.29-32

John Owen, " Three things are usually pleaded in the justification of the observance of such rites and ceremonies in the worship of God: First, that they tend unto the furtherance of the devotion of the worshipers; secondly, that they render the worship itself comely and beautiful; thirdly, that they are the preservers of order in the celebration thereof. And therefore on these accounts they may be instituted or appointed by some, and observed by all."

(Blue, Owen is addressing the issue you tried to thrust upon me when you wrote, "You want rules laid out and rituals, Catholics are good at that so why a baptist?" Owen recognizes that some are changing the biblical order and practice by instituting what they like forcing others to observe and practice it. I see the regulative principle as freeing me from observing false traditions, human forms of piety, etc.)

Owen hits the nail on the head with swift efficiency. All three points tend toward the preferences of man, they are man centered, rather than centered in the word of God.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Can you help me with this,I'm not getting how God should be worshipped today from this passage.

Deuteronomy: 12. 21. If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. 22. Even as the roebuck and the hart is eaten, so thou shalt eat them: the unclean and the clean shall eat of them alike. 23. Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh. 24. Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it upon the earth as water. 25. Thou shalt not eat it; that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD. 26. Only thy holy things which thou hast, and thy vows, thou shalt take, and go unto the place which the LORD shall choose: 27. And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh. 28. Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God. 29. When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30. Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I think a distinction needs to be made between Israel and the church. (Yes, you've guessed it: I'm dispensational...)

 

[twin1954]

I think a distinction needs to be made between Israel and the church. (Yes, you've guessed it: I'm dispensational...)

And here I was just beginning to like you.

 

[Bluelion]

Uzzah loved and thought he was worshipping God but when he put his hand to the Ark to keep it from falling off the cart it was on God killed him. 1Chron. 13:2-12

David later said that the Lord brought this breach upon us, the killing of Uzza, because we sought Him not after the due order.1Chron. 15:13

You see it is important to seek the Lord and worship Him according to the manner He has prescribed. We can't come to the Lord any way we wish nor can we worship Him in any way other than the way He has given us in the New Testament Scriptures.


Having said that I am also aware that no one follows the Regulative Principle strictly. It simply can't be done.

No david Loved God first thing he did when he arrived was find the ark and build a tent they were not even taking care of it. ANd also no one could approach God that was before the Christ came on the Cross, so yeah he died. How do you know it was out of love? that is adding to it, it does not say he reach out out of love, but that he touched the ark. But Moses Loved God when he went up the mountain and stood in God's presence.

 

[twin1954]

No david Loved God first thing he did when he arrived was find the ark and build a tent they were not even taking care of it. ANd also no one could approach God that was before the Christ came on the Cross, so yeah he died. How do you know it was out of love? that is adding to it, it does not say he reach out out of love, but that he touched the ark. But Moses Loved God when he went up the mountain and stood in God's presence.

As usual you ignore the point and focus on a detail. Are you actually foolish enough to think that Uzzah did it for any other reason than love?

Now deal with what David said was the cause of uzzah being killed.

 

[Bluelion]

As usual you ignore the point and focus on a detail. Are you actually foolish enough to think that Uzzah did it for any other reason than love?

Now deal with what David said was the cause of uzzah being killed.

I'm moving on, frankly I don't care to discuss with you some one else sure, but past history i know it won't go any where with yopu so there is no need to speak with you really about anything, thanks and have a nice day.
blu

BTW your argument is fallcy

 

[twin1954]

I'm moving on, frankly I don't care to discuss with you some one else sure, but past history i know it won't go any where with yopu so there is no need to speak with you really about anything, thanks and have a nice day.
blu

BTW your argument is fallcy

I understand if you can't deal with a Scriptural argument. It is always easy to ignore what you cannot refute. Just remember that love doesn't singly define the nature and character of God. It is one of His many attributes.

BTW faith is the required ingredient for worship. Without faith there is no love.

 

[Bluelion]

I understand if you can't deal with a Scriptural argument. It is always easy to ignore what you cannot refute. Just remember that love doesn't singly define the nature and character of God. It is one of His many attributes.

BTW faith is the required ingredient for worship. Without faith there is no love.

Nope I really have no need to argue with some who spits out fallacy, like you just did yet again

I feel like you are trying to bate, is that what your doing?

 

[Bluelion]

Twin i might remind you that why you seem to have no respect for me or my wishes, the way you treat me is the same way you are treating Jesus.

Mat 25
31 “But when the Son of Man[d] comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations[e] will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[f] you were doing it to me!’

41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[g] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”


So if you can't have love and respect for me maybe have it for Jesus inside of me at least.