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Regulative Principle of Worship

jmcorn

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Ted, I think you are correct. We attended this particular church for 5 years. Then we left to find a smaller church. I agree that most of them are visitors looking for a show, however, they do get to hear the Gospel while there.

On the flip side of that. Our smaller church is more focused on missions in the area and helping others out in need and just showing the genuine Love of Christ in general.
 
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USCGrad90

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I have had good discussions on style of music with one of my friends. His opinion is that only traditional hymns should be played, while I believe that if the content glorifies God, then the style of music is only important to the audience preferences.

I also thought this article was as interesting read. It mentions how Isacc Watts' was considered controversial because people of his day sang psalms and considered his hymns as shutting out divinely inspired scripture. Watts is author of many of the "traditional" hymns in our church today.

Isaac Watts - The Center For Church Music, Songs and Hymns

Could modern songwriters and musicians be considered similar to Watts in trying to connect their generation with God? While I know there are some contemporary Christian songs with questionable theology - I think there are many good songs that are well thought out with good theology and reflective of scripture.
 
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Striver

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Great topic.

I will throw my hat in this thread as another South Carolina boy familiar with NewSpring. In the interest of full disclosure, I visited the main campus for two conferences, attended the Myrtle Beach campus on a couple of occasions, and do listen to sermons on-and-off online.

With the recent attention on megachurch pastors and congregations, I do get a little bit skeptical of putting on a show. I think this is a legitimate criticism that can be leveled with great accuracy at a megachurch. However, I also think this could be leveled at a smaller church when the pastor preaches on fire and brimstone, if it's done in the wrong spirit.

However, when I attend NewSpring, I look with awe at the faces around me. People from all walks of life are being pulled in to church. These are people who, by traditional definitions, don't belong. They're young, rough looking, or whatever.

To tie this all back to the OP, in my view the RPW does try and organize an order to worship that is based off a template from the Bible. I respect that, and the first question for worship, IMHO, should be does this glorify God? The concept of RPW is very valuable for this question because there is a mooring to stay connected.

What concerns me, however, about the RPW is that it can be abused to start questioning things like instrument choices. While I sympathize with there being a point in which something is indeed too loud and distracting, do we really want to tread down the path of suggesting that God can only hear good music when it's on key and the acoustics are just right? It's hard to distinguish, for me, precisely where personal preference and RPW-like anchors meet.

Do we also want to head down the path of arguing, necessarily, that older is always better? (Just for the record, I am pretty sure that the Eastern Orthodox would win that fight.)

It is interesting to look into the advent of hymns and how there was controversy when hymns were adopted as opposed to exclusively singing psalms. To me, the focus should be on the content versus the medium. For instance, yes songs these days aren't as deep and involved as hymns, for the most part. I get this concern and agree, to a point. Yet, I see battle lines forming along the lines of contemporary vs. traditional moreso than looking into the actual content.

If you want to argue that repeating God is good 30 times in a song is not the best worship and use of church versus a theological hymn (or contemporary song/hymn), then that seems to be a valid argument. (I agree that some worship songs are a little vapid.) I find that sort of argument much more profitable than trying to dress up "I don't like the way that sounds!" in some theological gossamer.
 
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jmcorn

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Great topic.

I will throw my hat in this thread as another South Carolina boy familiar with NewSpring. In the interest of full disclosure, I visited the main campus for two conferences, attended the Myrtle Beach campus on a couple of occasions, and do listen to sermons on-and-off online.

With the recent attention on megachurch pastors and congregations, I do get a little bit skeptical of putting on a show. I think this is a legitimate criticism that can be leveled with great accuracy at a megachurch. However, I also think this could be leveled at a smaller church when the pastor preaches on fire and brimstone, if it's done in the wrong spirit.

However, when I attend NewSpring, I look with awe at the faces around me. People from all walks of life are being pulled in to church. These are people who, by traditional definitions, don't belong. They're young, rough looking, or whatever.

To tie this all back to the OP, in my view the RPW does try and organize an order to worship that is based off a template from the Bible. I respect that, and the first question for worship, IMHO, should be does this glorify God? The concept of RPW is very valuable for this question because there is a mooring to stay connected.

What concerns me, however, about the RPW is that it can be abused to start questioning things like instrument choices. While I sympathize with there being a point in which something is indeed too loud and distracting, do we really want to tread down the path of suggesting that God can only hear good music when it's on key and the acoustics are just right? It's hard to distinguish, for me, precisely where personal preference and RPW-like anchors meet.

Do we also want to head down the path of arguing, necessarily, that older is always better? (Just for the record, I am pretty sure that the Eastern Orthodox would win that fight.)

It is interesting to look into the advent of hymns and how there was controversy when hymns were adopted as opposed to exclusively singing psalms. To me, the focus should be on the content versus the medium. For instance, yes songs these days aren't as deep and involved as hymns, for the most part. I get this concern and agree, to a point. Yet, I see battle lines forming along the lines of contemporary vs. traditional moreso than looking into the actual content.

If you want to argue that repeating God is good 30 times in a song is not the best worship and use of church versus a theological hymn (or contemporary song/hymn), then that seems to be a valid argument. (I agree that some worship songs are a little vapid.) I find that sort of argument much more profitable than trying to dress up "I don't like the way that sounds!" in some theological gossamer.

Ha ha, I could only imagine what Perry would have to say about the RPW!
 
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OzSpen

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You raise some excellent issues. I think it is very much like Isaac Watts day, but on a different level, with what is happening in church music.

I go to a congregation that only sings hymns (but at least they are modern enough to place the words on a screen, projected from a digital device). But the church service is enough to send one to sleep - as I've seen a few people do.

I'm of the view that the style of music needs to be what people listen to. Judging by the radio ratings in my city, most folks are not listening to classical music or middle-of-the-road music that is similar to hymns.

For me, the contemporary worship needs to have God glorifying lyrics and I find that too many contemporary lyrics are very light in biblical content. In addition, the melodies are not singable for me - a less than average singer. At least with Isaac Watts, his poems were put to congregationally singable music.

I've printed off that article for my pianist wife. She's a lover of hymns and will appreciate the info about Isaac Watts.

Oz

I have had good discussions on style of music with one of my friends. His opinion is that only traditional hymns should be played, while I believe that if the content glorifies God, then the style of music is only important to the audience preferences.

I also thought this article was as interesting read. It mentions how Isacc Watts' was considered controversial because people of his day sang psalms and considered his hymns as shutting out divinely inspired scripture. Watts is author of many of the "traditional" hymns in our church today.

Isaac Watts - The Center For Church Music, Songs and Hymns

Could modern songwriters and musicians be considered similar to Watts in trying to connect their generation with God? While I know there are some contemporary Christian songs with questionable theology - I think there are many good songs that are well thought out with good theology and reflective of scripture.
 
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MrJim

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I prefer the a Capella I've experienced in plain Mennonite and Eastern Orthodox services..not a fan of karaoke worship at all but if one worships that way then they can and I will go elsewhere...the only instrument that could add anything to worship would be a 5-string banjo (just saying ;)).

The SBC I attend does karaoke worship but so far no drums and guitars....
 
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OzSpen

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I prefer the a Capella I've experienced in plain Mennonite and Eastern Orthodox services..not a fan of karaoke worship at all but if one worships that way then they can and I will go elsewhere...the only instrument that could add anything to worship would be a 5-string banjo (just saying ;)).

The SBC I attend does karaoke worship but so far no drums and guitars....
Would your church be biblical enough for this to happen in your church?
Sing to him a new song;
play skilfully on the strings, with loud shouts (Psalm 33:3 ESV).
Would your church be able to get as radical as this?
Praise the Lord!
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens!
2 Praise him for his mighty deeds;
praise him according to his excellent greatness!
3 Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
4 Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
5 Praise him with sounding cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord! (Psalm 150:1-6)
 
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MrJim

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Would your church be biblical enough for this to happen in your church?
Sing to him a new song;
play skilfully on the strings, with loud shouts (Psalm 33:3 ESV).
Would your church be able to get as radical as this?
Praise the Lord!
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens!
2 Praise him for his mighty deeds;
praise him according to his excellent greatness!
3 Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
4 Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
5 Praise him with sounding cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord! (Psalm 150:1-6)

The church I attend isn't a Jewish assembly---hate to break it to you but "biblical" doesn't equal "Christian"....
 
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OzSpen

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If worship is based on personal preference and preferred style could you consistently argue that some forms of worship are unbiblical?
So are you saying that the Psalms are irrelevant to you in your worship of God?

Have a guess what? The foundation of Christianity is built on God's revelation to the Jews. Please don't run a mile from the Jewish way of worship. They can teach us a few things about getting excited (even loud) in our worship of God.
 
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JM

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The Regulative Principle is just a way to sum up the idea that we cannot worship God any old way we like, that we worship Him the way He has revealed it to us in His word.

Wiki:

The regulative principle of worship is a teaching shared by some Calvinists and Anabaptists on how the Bible orders public worship. The substance of the doctrine regarding worship is that only those elements that are instituted or appointed by command or example or which can be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture are permissible in worship, and that whatever is not commanded or cannot be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture is prohibited. The term "regulative principle" is less frequently broadened to apply to other areas such as church government [1][2][page needed], but in this sense it becomes synonymous with the principle of sola scriptura.

The regulative principle is often contrasted with the normative principle of worship which teaches that whatever is not prohibited in Scripture is permitted in worship, as long as it is agreeable to the peace and unity of the Church. In short, there must be agreement with the general practice of the Church and no prohibition in Scripture for whatever is done in worship.
The normative principle of worship is the generally accepted approach to worship practiced by Anglicans, Evangelicals, and Methodists. The regulative principle of worship is generally practiced by the conservative Reformed churches, Restoration Movement, and in other conservative Protestant denominations, and it finds expression in confessional documents such as the Westminster Confession of Faith (see Chapter 21), the Heidelberg Catechism, the Belgic Confession, and the London Baptist Confession of Faith.

Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America > Regulative Principle of Worship

We live in a day in which the concept of worship has taken on many different meanings among evangelical churches in America and around the world. The worship services of many so-called “seeker-sensitive” churches are designed to appeal to the unbeliever on his own terms, thus tending to give the worship services of those churches a very distinctive “entertainment” flair. The worship service of the typical charismatic church is long on music, loud, rhythm-driven music that is designed to stir the emotions, but short on the exposition of Scripture which should be the foundation of true religious emotions. Even many of the more conservative evangelical churches include activities in the worship service that make a Reformed believer who cherishes the regulative principle uncomfortable.

Which view do you hold to and why?

Yours in the Lord,

j

I'm not sure if the Regulative Principle (RP from now on) has been properly understood. As far as I know there are at least two groups who believe the RP is the biblical way to approach worship: 1) one denies the use of instruments while the other view believes (2) we should include instruments with reverence. It does not, by necessity, assumed the most extreme position (acapella Psalms only from now on PO) is the equivalent of the RP. I did included definitions in an effort to prevent this from happening. I hold to the RP as expressed by numerous Reformed Confessions especially the London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689).

As Baptists we all confess Christ to be the head of the church and the Bible as authoritative in all matters of faith and practice. That also means within Baptist associations we have a degree of freedom to worship according to our maturity in the faith or lack thereof. One congregation does not have authority over another and this allows for different understandings without alienation between believers. I would have no problem being in association with PO or a church that held to a more rock concert type of service as long as they did not hold to their positions self righteously or legalistically.

I have noticed a trend in many conservative Baptist churches of turning to the world for ways to worship including hiring professional, unbelieving musicians, to play worship services. This worship (IMO) tends to be focus on the individual, including worship team solos (vocal and instrumental) that seem more like entertainment than biblical worship. Dr. James White often cautions us with, "what you win them with is what you win them to." If you are a church that seeks to entertain new converts you might be creating more problems than you are solving. Can we honestly say either extreme, strict PO or following worldly trends are biblical? Personally, I do not believe we enter into worship or approach God according to our own personal prefers…but I have to admit, I do like the idea of banjos. ;)

Dr. Bob explains what Reformed Baptists believe here: The Baptist Confession on Worship: Its Regulative Principle » It Is Written and here: http://drbobgonzales.com/2013/04/18/worship-for-dummies-the-regulative-principle-made-simple/

Anyways, that's the way I see it, you don't have to agree.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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jmcorn

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I'm not sure if the Regulative Principle (RP from now on) has been properly understood. As far as I know there are at least two groups who believe the RP is the biblical way to approach worship: 1) one denies the use of instruments while the other view believes (2) we should include instruments with reverence. It does not, by necessity, assumed the most extreme position (acapella Psalms only from now on PO) is the equivalent of the RP. I did included definitions in an effort to prevent this from happening. I hold to the RP as expressed by numerous Reformed Confessions especially the London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689).

As Baptists we all confess Christ to be the head of the church and the Bible as authoritative in all matters of faith and practice. That also means within Baptist associations we have a degree of freedom to worship according to our maturity in the faith or lack thereof. One congregation does not have authority over another and this allows for different understandings without alienation between believers. I would have no problem being in association with PO or a church that held to a more rock concert type of service as long as they did not hold to their positions self righteously or legalistically.

I have noticed a trend in many conservative Baptist churches of turning to the world for ways to worship including hiring professional, unbelieving musicians, to play worship services. This worship (IMO) tends to be focus on the individual, including worship team solos (vocal and instrumental) that seem more like entertainment than biblical worship. Dr. James White often cautions us with, "what you win them with is what you win them to." If you are a church that seeks to entertain new converts you might be creating more problems than you are solving. Can we honestly say either extreme, strict PO or following worldly trends are biblical? Personally, I do not believe we enter into worship or approach God according to our own personal prefers...but I have to admit, I do like the idea of banjos. ;)


jm


I agree. I do not think a non believer should be paid to play at church, however, it is a way for Christ to reach them doing what they love. I think that if there are not enough Christians that will step up to the plate to serve in these areas then God will use nonbelievers to carry on his work and Praises.

Luke 19:37-40 ESV

As he was drawing near--already on the way down the Mount of Olives--the whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen, saying, "Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!" And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples." He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

I think that most of the larger churches do this because they want mutiple backups for each position. I have never been paid to play at church nor has any non believer played with us. I would also like to have a banjo player play with us on some of the southern Gospel songs we do.
 
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Striver

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I have noticed a trend in many conservative Baptist churches of turning to the world for ways to worship including hiring professional, unbelieving musicians, to play worship services. This worship (IMO) tends to be focus on the individual, including worship team solos (vocal and instrumental) that seem more like entertainment than biblical worship. Dr. James White often cautions us with, "what you win them with is what you win them to." If you are a church that seeks to entertain new converts you might be creating more problems than you are solving. Can we honestly say either extreme, strict PO or following worldly trends are biblical? Personally, I do not believe we enter into worship or approach God according to our own personal prefers…but I have to admit, I do like the idea of banjos.

Agree with this as a very important point. I do think it steps outside of the boundaries to have a worship leader/musician/etc. that does not believe regardless of the quality of the music. I've not known this to happen, but I've heard this a number of times so I would assume it happens at some level. I do see where it would happen in a church where the goal was to get people in the building.

As for the banjos, that does seem to be a small but welcome trend in Christian folk music as of late.
 
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