Regret in Hell?

[Not David]

This is what I am talking about

The Univocality of God’s Love

The author talks about love about what one does for the person but forgets the fact that if you are with someone you hate, no matter what you do, that other person will keep hating you.

 

[JohnTh]

Human words have the meaning that God gave them, not us. He created language, therefore, when the word "repent" is used, it has a certain and distinct meaning.

???
For example „repent” in Greek is „μετάνοια” which means „bring back the nous in its existential place - meta-noia / meta-nous”. There are fathers which wrote entire books on this word, books which in English are very difficult to translate. So, believe me - no offense intended - if you do not know Ancient Greek, read the Holy Fathers, and live the commandments in an Orthodox environment, you do not know what „repentance” means. As per why such a stark difference, read here. I was born Orthodox and now, after so many years, I realized that I just started to learn what μετάνοια means.

Also, take, for example John 1:1

„In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

compared with the original language of the New Testament the above text has significantly other meaning(s) and much less than the original Greek.

So, if God gave the meanings of words, why He gave such different meanings in different languages?

It isn't God which gave the meanings of words but humans saying that this is a „house” that is a „chair” etc. etc. etc.

Same with spiritual notions: this is „love” that is „hate” etc. However here we have two big problems:

1.) the idea of such notions can change in time and space according with a certain geographical/civilization area and according with a certain time.
2.) (our topic) most of us do not know God and then, the very few which know God (including the writers of the Holy Bible) in order to describe the realities of God in our language use the most appropriate therms but these terms compared with the reality which they describe are far and away from the actual experience of God's reality. Aside of the link posted here (in one of the above paragraphs) it is like I try to describe you how honey is: I will tell you that it is sweet, yellow and somewhat liquid. However the real experience of honey is quite different from the above attributes even if they are correct. See for a better example the link provided.

 

[Light of the East]

The author talks about love about what one does for the person but forgets the fact that if you are with someone you hate, no matter what you do, that other person will keep hating you.

That is not the point of the whole blog piece. The point is that love does not have equivocal meanings that you can twist and tweak to make fit your theological preferences. You appear to have missed the whole point of what I was talking about in the piece. Love is always the same, whether you are doing it for friend or enemy - it is doing that which is their best interest.

Now the action of love may not seem like love - for instance, an intervention with confinement to a treatment center for an addict will seem like hate to the addict, but it is the best thing for that person.

QUOTE: However the reality of God is totally different that ours.

So does this mean that the reality of God being ontologically different from us, it changes the whole definition of love when applied to God? When the word "love" is applied to God, it suddenly means that God can take actions which we would look at and consider sociopathic if done by humans?

 

[Not David]

That is not the point of the whole blog piece. The point is that love does not have equivocal meanings that you can twist and tweak to make fit your theological preferences. You appear to have missed the whole point of what I was talking about in the piece. Love is always the same, whether you are doing it for friend or enemy - it is doing that which is their best interest.

Now the action of love may not seem like love - for instance, an intervention with confinement to a treatment center for an addict will seem like hate to the addict, but it is the best thing for that person.

QUOTE: However the reality of God is totally different that ours.

So does this mean that the reality of God being ontologically different from us, it changes the whole definition of love when applied to God? When the word "love" is applied to God, it suddenly means that God can take actions which we would look at and consider sociopathic if done by humans?

You seem to have a modernist "feels good" idea of love.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That is not the point of the whole blog piece. The point is that love does not have equivocal meanings that you can twist and tweak to make fit your theological preferences. You appear to have missed the whole point of what I was talking about in the piece. Love is always the same, whether you are doing it for friend or enemy - it is doing that which is their best interest.

Now the action of love may not seem like love - for instance, an intervention with confinement to a treatment center for an addict will seem like hate to the addict, but it is the best thing for that person.

QUOTE: However the reality of God is totally different that ours.

So does this mean that the reality of God being ontologically different from us, it changes the whole definition of love when applied to God? When the word "love" is applied to God, it suddenly means that God can take actions which we would look at and consider sociopathic if done by humans?

in your analogy about the addict, being confined can feel like sadism and hate to the addict, but in reality it's not.

so those in hell are experiencing the infinite love of their Father, and that's what causes the eternal torment.

and yes, when it comes to God, every concept we have is thrown out of the window because He is beyond comparison or contrast. His love is so beyond our concept of what love is that you can't call it love by any human standard.

 

[Light of the East]

You seem to have a modernist "feels good" idea of love.

Really????

Did I miss another definition of love somewhere? The last time I looked/heard regarding what love is, it was always that you do that which best for the other.

But perhaps you have another definition which I have not heard of. Please share.

 

[Light of the East]

in your analogy about the addict, being confined can feel like sadism and hate to the addict, but in reality it's not.

so those in hell are experiencing the infinite love of their Father, and that's what causes the eternal torment.

and yes, when it comes to God, every concept we have is thrown out of the window because He is beyond comparison or contrast. His love is so beyond our concept of what love is that you can't call it love by any human standard.

The point of confinement, treatment, withdrawl, etc. in regards to the addict is that the addict be recovered to sanity and a healthy life.

The point of hell that doesn't end is..................?????

 

[ArmyMatt]

The point of confinement, treatment, withdrawl, etc. in regards to the addict is that the addict be recovered to sanity and a healthy life.

The point of hell that doesn't end is..................?????

because you're past the point of successive time, as you are experiencing the eternal God as He is. the sinner experiences time as eternity, so if He takes unrepentant sins into that experience, it doesn't end.

 

[Light of the East]

because you're past the point of successive time, as you are experiencing the eternal God as He is. the sinner experiences time as eternity, so if He takes unrepentant sins into that experience, it doesn't end.

Then praying for the dead is useless and a waste of my time.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Then praying for the dead is useless and a waste of my time.

You can't have it both ways.

hell doesn't exist til after Judgment Day. plus, if God is outside of time, any prayer for the departed is taken into account since God knew those prayers would be prayed before the foundation of the world.

no one is having it both ways.

 

[Light of the East]

hell doesn't exist til after Judgment Day. plus, if God is outside of time, any prayer for the departed is taken into account since God knew those prayers would be prayed before the foundation of the world.

no one is having it both ways.

Okay.

I'll ponder that some more.

 

[ArmyMatt]

that's fine and please do.

but stop please coming here and trying to push universalism or find some theological loophole for it. it's heresy. it will only ever be heresy.

 

[Light of the East]

that's fine and please do.

but stop please coming here and trying to push universalism or find some theological loophole for it. it's heresy. it will only ever be heresy.

*sigh*

I didn't start the thread. The thread was about hell and regret in hell. That's really the whole issue .... can a person repent in the next life. My response was in kind.

Next time I'll just pass out of respect for you and the forum

 

[ArmyMatt]

*sigh*

I didn't start the thread. The thread was about hell and regret in hell. That's really the whole issue .... can a person repent in the next life. My response was in kind.

Next time I'll just pass out of respect for you and the forum

it started out that way, and then you started about universalism being true.

 

[Not David]

it started out that way, and then you started about universalism being true.

It started that way, then he mentioned something about God repenting and then out of nowhere: universalism

 

[Light of the East]

It started that way, then he mentioned something about God repenting and then out of nowhere: universalism

You are right. I hijacked the thread.

My bad.

I apologize.

 

[nicholas123]

Human words have the meaning that God gave them, not us. He created language

No, God talks to us in our human language and partakes in human culture. What would even be the purpose of creation if we had not such freedom? God did not invent koiné greek, this would be funny if you told it as a joke. Now it's just sad.

For example „repent” in Greek is „μετάνοια” which means „bring back the nous in its existential place - meta-noia / meta-nous”.

Is "to bend over oneself" appropriate?

 

[JohnTh]

The point of hell that doesn't end is..................?????

There is no point. It is absurd. It is an absurd stubborn behavior of an rational being (human, angel). Being rational means that the being has self-determination.

Read more about the difference between heaven and hell.

Hell is choice.

 

[JohnTh]

Is "to bend over oneself" appropriate?

Yes - somewhat. Like you drive a car - you go in a tree with it - then either 1.) put the engine in Rear mode (if your accident is small) either 2.) call the special crane to get you out from there, that is God's grace.

Hint: almost always the second case applies.

 

[Euodius]

*You are in the Orthodox Forum*

I was watching a video and the Youtuber said that the worse suffering for those in hell is the fact that they could have achieved heaven eternally. I think he quoted Thomas Aquinas so that's why I am asking if there is something like that in Orthodoxy?

Also, in the same video, there was a story of a man exorcising the devil and Satan says he regrets not "contemplating God's beauty" and if he could go through a pillar with barberwire (something like that ) to go to heaven for a few time he would do it.

Does the devil regret in Orthodoxy?

Thank you for your answer.

Regret has multiple meanings and forms. There is a since in which regret is inherent to the condition of being in hell (it is a regretful condition.) And then there is the emotional/spiritual form of regret which we all know too well by being human. Those in hell remain human, so it is possible that they feel that regret in some kind of way. However, I must say that regret is usually an emotion that evolves - it isn't stable in it's 'pure' form. It can evolve into acceptance, forgiveness, (or even gratitude) or into resentment - these are more stable. That is why it is very difficult to wash away resentment. After the final judgement, I think only resentment could be had. Any regret, I believe, would quickly become resentment or generally be of the resentment kind.

St. Ephraim teaches that resentment is the Mark of the Antichrist which is applied to the hearts of men across the ages (until the final years where it is applied not only to the heart, but to the hands and heads of men - so you could say the mark is made manifest.) For this reason we should all pray to be saved from resentment - because resentment is the opposite of forgiveness and those who do not forgive are not forgiven.

As for the idea, "if he could go through a pillar with barberwire," I don't think so. I think Dante is correct with his description of the damned that "their fear turns to desire." The place and condition of hell becomes desirable to those who twist themselves and the beauty of God becomes undesirable to them. You can see this desire for hell everywhere in modern media. You can see the desire for hell in people and you can know that desire yourself. You can see how modern media conditions people for hell whereas the liturgy conditions people for heaven. Is the desire for hell true? No, it is born of and is of deceit and darkness - but men preferred darkness instead of light.