Regional Flood, or Global? Let's look at the Scripture

[Sinai]

I don't have a "chip" on my shoulder, I have a burden in my heart. Thus far, I have heard that YEC's are idol worshipers, apostasy, close-minded, unable to understand, misled, and probably 20 other comments that YEC's being the reason people leave christianity.

The sad part is that many people do leave Christianity because they require "facts" because, for them, and for those who are not YEC, faith is not enough. I am tired of being condemned for my faith... that isn't the purpose of this forum or this thread.

As I have posted before... anytime I cite a "proof"... it is pushed aside as folly. It's YOUR folly... not mine... I don't need "proof", you do. Even after abusive comments and condemnations, I see no reason to change what I believe one iota. I certainly don't want what any of you have.

~malaka~

As you said, the purpose of this forum is not to condemn anyone else's faith. Rather, it is designed for Christians to discuss creation science, theistic evolution and related issues. To my knowledge, I have never codemned your faith or referred to your beliefs as folly (as you did in your last paragraph).

Although I do remember having complimeted you and inviting you to explain the reasons you think scriptures require you to reject scientific evidence that the universe is billions of Earth years old, I don't remember making any "abusive comments and condemnations" of either you or your beliefs. If you have interpreted something I wrote as saying that, then please forgive me.

And as for your concluding sentence, what I have is a wonderfully fulfilling relationship with my Lord and savior--and I hope you have such a relationship as well.....

Just because we may interpret certain scriptures differently does not mean we are not brothers (or sisters) in the family of God.

Shalom.....

 

[Ark Guy]

From what I hear the stones of the pyramids contain fossils.
This is a good indication that they were cut from a quarry that was originally deposited by the world wide flood of Noah.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Just because we may interpret certain scriptures differently does not mean we are not brothers (or sisters) in the family of God.

Shalom.....

And this too is an excellent point!

 

[nephilimiyr]

both of you seem to be implying that fundamentalist YEC's only accept modern translations. I will just pitch my "Resources", "manuscripts", "other writings", "church history", "creationsim", "archaeology", "judaism", and "exodus" files from my favorites, that will eliminate 100+ resources from my grasp.... and just live in the little box you have created for "YEC's"

I mearly said that the literalists I have had contact with (discussions with) rarely used anything other than any of the english translations. I did not pin this on all literalists because in fact I consider myself a literalist but only after I know what the original author said in the language he wrote it in. Otherwise all your doing is literally interpreting a translation.

what translation should I use... since I only get one... make it a good one.

It doesn't matter what translation you use. Which ever one you like the best I suppose, I chose KJV because it's much easier to go dirrectly to that Hebrew word and find it's meaning. Again any serious student of scripture must take into account that the difference's in languages calls for futher study into what the author originally said in the language that he wrote it in.

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Here's a great illistration of what I'm talking about. This is from a thread I recently posted in, in another forum. We are trying to find the meaning of "perfect".

Tawhano is looking more for an answer of what the Greek word in the passage is saying. There are several different meanings to the word teleios, Strongs number 5046.

Here's how they're listed

1) Brought to it's end, finished

2) Wanting nothing necessary to completeness

3) Perfect

4) That which is perfect
a. consummate human integrity and virtue

b. full grown, adult age, mature



I have to go with 4a. Consummate human integrity and virtue and here's why.

The meaing of consummate in the Websters New World dictionary is put like this:
1. Complete and perfect in every way; supreme
2. Very skillful, highly expert.

Lets look at Matthew 5:48 again shall we. Be ye perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.

We are not in heaven as the father is in heaven therefore we are unable to be like him. The father has his virtues and integrities to live by as someone living in heaven as a supreme, holy being. But we will never measure up because of this sinful flesh we live in now. We are told by Jesus that as we live as children of God we must always strive to be as the Father but we can only do so as created fallen beings.

So, be ye therefore perfect down here as your Father is perfect up there. See what I'm saying? Down here we are only going to be as perfect as our world and flesh allows us to be. God's world is that of heaven above, a place we are not in at this present time.

Yes God can and has proven to be able to live in this world and this flesh without sinning and being perfect. And although Jesus promised to send the "comforter" and that he will live in us this doesn't mean that he will take total control over us. I agree that this is what God wants but God doesn't force it. God waits for us to give in to him and his will.

What I'm suggesting, or even asking, is this. The 4a meaning of teleios can be applied to both us and God? We must strive to be consummate in our integrities and virtues as God is consummate in his integrities and virtues? Very interesting thought don't you think? I believe this could be the meaning of Matt. 5:48.

Now it's important to know that by answering Tawhano's question we are not asking ourselves what the meaning of perfect is but what the meaning of teleios is. Perfect is just an English word used by the translators that just so happends to be 1 of several possible meanings.

As I look at the english word "perfect" and find it's meaning I can't see useing this as the actual meaning of teleios in Matt. 5:48 because the useage of the word would suggest we can be flawless, without defect or omission and that would go against other scriptures saying that we all sin and must go to Jesus for forgiveness. 1 John 1:8-10, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Therefore I reject the translation being that of perfect.

I see most literalists interpreting "perfect" as the english meaning of perfect only for the simple fact that "perfect" is written there. But because there is a question about what the meaning of the word is I look to the actual word the original author uses to tell me what the meaning of it really is. And like in this thread with Vance and I because their are words in question that have several different meaning to them we are studing them to find the real meaning of what the author wanted to convey. Only after I find this out do I apply any kind of literal sense to it.

 

[Vance]

OK, Neph, let's take it to the next step. I am convinced that your definition of "generations" is a viable one (although I don't think it is, without doubt, the usage intended by the author), and let's just take that as given and move forward.

What evidence is there for the rest of the theory. We see the Scriptural story of the Nephilim, but obviously this is not detailed enough to alone prove the theory. Here are the points of the theory as I see it:

1. That Noah's lineage was pure of Nephilim blood, and actually the ONLY line not so tainted;

2. That Jesus must be borne of a line not tainted;

3. All the Nephilim-tainted lines must be destroyed;

4. It was the Nephilim who were the cause of all the wickedness;

5. The Nephilim-tainted groups had spread all over the world, or at least were not limited to a single region.

What additional evidence do you have, Scriptural or extra-Scriptural, to support these propositions?

 

[nephilimiyr]

1. That Noah's lineage was pure of Nephilim blood, and actually the ONLY line not so tainted;

2. That Jesus must be borne of a line not tainted;

3. All the Nephilim-tainted lines must be destroyed;

4. It was the Nephilim who were the cause of all the wickedness;

5. The Nephilim-tainted groups had spread all over the world, or at least were not limited to a single region.

So far everything you have said shows me you have understood everything I've said except that about the Nephilim being the cause of all wickedness. If I said this, this would be wrong. Men can't be excused here especially those who came from the line of Cain. However the "sons of God" showed up the began to teach things that God did not intend for man to know anything about. They taught sorcery along with astronomy and signs, and they taught the art of warfare among other things. The Nephilim didn't teach these things but practised them and turned against man and sinned against them.

What additional evidence do you have, Scriptural or extra-Scriptural, to support these propositions?

There's alot of other places in the Bible that do talk about the Nephilim however Genesis 6 is the only place that suggests how far they had spread. You asked for extra-scriptural evidence and in this way I can provide plenty of non-canonized books and writtings that do talk about both the nature and spread of the Nephilim.

The Book of Enoch is the most noteable and studied but there's also The book of the secrets of Enoch, The book of Jubilees, The first and second books of Adam and Eve, The testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, The Law of the Prophets, The Genesis Apocryphon, The writtings of Philo of Alexandria, Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus, and even others.