Regeneration before faith?

[John Mullally]

I understand the Arminian position as I used to be one myself, until somebody sat me down and showed me around 60 Bible verses which support the Calvin view.

I would think that 1 Timothy 2:3-4 would be enough to answer, from a non-Calvinist POV. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says that God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Assuming the Calvinist doctrine that God chooses who will be believe and be saved, then under 1 Timothy 2:3-4, God, who does not exagerate, would have to choose everyone. Of course Calvinists do not believe that.

Our Church teaches that no man is capable of knowing the mind of God, because the crux of the problem for fallen man is trying to understand a infinitely wise God with a fallen finite little mind.

I have never heard a discussion approaching trying to figure out God in our church. Everything is practical, as in what does God want us to do based upon scriptural directives (mainly from the NT).

God never told us why He chooses to save some and leave others in their sin, Our Church teaches that it's an amazing act of mercy and love that He chose to save any sinners at all, since we all deserve nothing less than eternal condemnation for we're all sinners and deserve His wrath and punishment.

So under Calvinism where God does all the choosing, there is no telling why God chooses some sinners to heaven and some sinners to hell from before their birth. What is the pratical application for that?

God has revealed very little about Himself to us in the Bible, He instructed His prophets not to reveal a whole lot of things. He even blinds certain people so they can never understand the gospel message. I don't know why He does this but that what He said so I just believe Him, as I'm in no position to argue with Him.

Satan, not God, blinds people to the Gospel.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

Matthew 13:10-15 is cited as God veiling truths - even today. I view that scripture being specific to that time - remember that Christ had to be crucified which required the unwitting cooperation from Jewish leaders and satan (1 Corinthians 2:8). How does that work, if Christ spells out His mission too plainly or gets the nation of Israel to repent? Note, we see Jesus taking extraordinary steps to drive away almost all would-be followers in John 6.

 

[Hammster]

God desires all men to be saved

Is there any other linguistic possibility to this verse that could mean mean something different? In other words, could pas mean all types?

 

[John Mullally]

Is there any other linguistic possibility to this verse that could mean mean something different? In other words, could pas mean all types?

The same Greek word pas is used at Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Do Calvinists wish to use that same argument there as well? Moreover, 1 Timothy 4:10 defines “all men” unfavorably to the view that only believers are intended: “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.” Obviously, then, “all men” cannot mean only believers, since believers are just a subset of “all men” rather than its totality.

Calvinists have been looking for an alternate meaning to 1 TImothy 2:3-4 for a long time. This is from Charles Spurgeon:

“What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. ‘All men,’ say they,—‘that is, some men’: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said ‘some men’ if he had meant some men. ‘All men,’ say they; ‘that is, some of all sorts of men’: as if the Lord could not have said ‘all sorts of men’ if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written ‘all men,’ and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the ‘alls’ according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth.​

​

The fact that not all are saved, despite God’s desire that they be saved, leads inexorably to free-will, in which God gives people a choice, without forcing His choice upon them. The advantage for non-Calvinists is that they can accept 1 Timothy 2:3-4 on face value, without supposing a weak desire, and without restricting “all men” to only Calvinism’s elect.

 

[Hammster]

The same Greek word pas is used at Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Do Calvinists wish to use that same argument there as well? Moreover, 1 Timothy 4:10 defines “all men” unfavorably to the view that only believers are intended: “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.” Obviously, then, “all men” cannot mean only believers, since believers are just a subset of “all men” rather than its totality.

Calvinists have been looking for an alternate meaning to 1 TImothy 2:3-4 for a long time. This is from Charles Spurgeon:

“What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. ‘All men,’ say they,—‘that is, some men’: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said ‘some men’ if he had meant some men. ‘All men,’ say they; ‘that is, some of all sorts of men’: as if the Lord could not have said ‘all sorts of men’ if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written ‘all men,’ and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the ‘alls’ according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth.​

​

The fact that not all are saved, despite God’s desire that they be saved, leads inexorably to free-will, in which God gives people a choice, without forcing His choice upon them. The advantage for non-Calvinists is that they can accept 1 Timothy 2:3-4 on face value, without supposing a weak desire, and without restricting “all men” to only Calvinism’s elect.

I was wondering if you would actually answer my question. It was very specific and was in regard to grammar.

 

[John Mullally]

I was wondering if you would actually answer my question. It was very specific and was in regard to grammar.

I will not. Look it up in a Greek lexicon yourself.

 

[Hammster]

Get a Greek lexicon and stop bothering me.

If you don’t want to answer, just say so. If you don’t know the answer, just ask.

 

[Hammster]

Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
— Luke 2:1

 

[John Mullally]

If you don’t want to answer, just say so. If you don’t know the answer, just ask.

You can get to your point without your usual peppering me with inane questions.

 

[Hammster]

You can get to you point without your usual peppering me with inane questions.

My point is to get you to actually admit that pas has more than one usage, and that it could mean all types of in 1 Timothy 2.

Now that you know that, you can see that the question wasn’t inane.

 

[zoidar]

My point is to get you to actually admit that pas has more than one usage, and that it could mean all types of in 1 Timothy 2.

Now that you know that, you can see that the question wasn’t inane.

Chrysostom says this on 1 Timothy 2:

"Ver. 4. Who wills that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Imitate God! If He wills that all men should be saved, there is reason why one should pray for all, if He has willed that all should be saved, be thou willing also; and if you wish it, pray for it, for wishes lead to prayers. Observe how from every quarter He urges this upon the soul, to pray for the Heathen, showing how great advantage springs from it; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life ; and what is much more than this, that it is pleasing to God, and thus men become like Him, in that they will the same that He does. This is enough to shame a very brute. Fear not therefore to pray for the Gentiles, for God Himself wills it; but fear only to pray against any, for that He wills not. And if you pray for the Heathens, you ought of course to pray for Heretics also, for we are to pray for all men, and not to persecute. And this is good also for another reason, as we are partakers of the same nature, and God commands and accepts benevolence and affection towards one another.

But if the Lord Himself wills to give, you say, what need of my prayer? It is of great benefit both to them and to yourself. It draws them to love, and it inclines you to humanity. It has the power of attracting others to the faith; (for many men have fallen away from God, from contentiousness towards one another and this is what he now calls the salvation of God, who will have all men to be saved ; without this all other is nothing great, a mere nominal salvation, and only in words. And to come to the knowledge of the truth. The truth: what truth? Faith in Him. And indeed he had previously said, Charge some that they teach no other doctrine. But that no one may consider such as enemies, and on that account raise troubles against them; he says that He wills that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth ; and having said this, he adds..."

 

[John Mullally]

My point is to get you to actually admit that pas has more than one usage, and that it could mean all types of in 1 Timothy 2.

Now that you know that, you can see that the question wasn’t inane.

I am not going to answer questions that are constructed to be answered in a way that weakens my argument - which will then result in me having to dig myself out of that. That is what the Pharisees tried on Jesus multiple times. You make your argument and I will make mine.

As to this: You don't get to pick the usage of pas that best supports your view. When a greek word can be translated multiple ways the Bible translators look at the surrounding text in order to determine the intent of the writer and all the Bible translators agree with me on this as none translated it to something resembling "all types of men": 1 Timothy 2:4 ESV - who desires all people to be… | Biblia

There is nothing in the surrounding verses of 1 Timothy 2:4 that indicate that Paul was talking anything other than "all men without exception". Post 483 shows leading Calvinist Charles Spurgeon agreeing with me and depicting fellow Calvinists as trying to change the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:4.

 

[JLB777]

Still spouting lies?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe this is a lie?






JLB

 

[Hammster]

Chrysostom says this on 1 Timothy 2:

"Ver. 4. Who wills that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Imitate God! If He wills that all men should be saved, there is reason why one should pray for all, if He has willed that all should be saved, be thou willing also; and if you wish it, pray for it, for wishes lead to prayers. Observe how from every quarter He urges this upon the soul, to pray for the Heathen, showing how great advantage springs from it; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life ; and what is much more than this, that it is pleasing to God, and thus men become like Him, in that they will the same that He does. This is enough to shame a very brute. Fear not therefore to pray for the Gentiles, for God Himself wills it; but fear only to pray against any, for that He wills not. And if you pray for the Heathens, you ought of course to pray for Heretics also, for we are to pray for all men, and not to persecute. And this is good also for another reason, as we are partakers of the same nature, and God commands and accepts benevolence and affection towards one another.

But if the Lord Himself wills to give, you say, what need of my prayer? It is of great benefit both to them and to yourself. It draws them to love, and it inclines you to humanity. It has the power of attracting others to the faith; (for many men have fallen away from God, from contentiousness towards one another and this is what he now calls the salvation of God, who will have all men to be saved ; without this all other is nothing great, a mere nominal salvation, and only in words. And to come to the knowledge of the truth. The truth: what truth? Faith in Him. And indeed he had previously said, Charge some that they teach no other doctrine. But that no one may consider such as enemies, and on that account raise troubles against them; he says that He wills that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth ; and having said this, he adds..."

I’ll ask you the same question. Is there any other linguistic possibility to this verse that could mean mean something different? In other words, could pas mean all types?

 

[Hammster]

I am not going to answer questions that are constructed to be answered in a way that weakens my argument - which will then result in me having to dig myself out of that

Then your argument is nothing more than a house of cards. You know that pas can also mean all types. So there’s nothing in 1 Timothy 2:4 that indicates that it must mean “all without exception”. Even if you look at the context, it could mean all types because the previous verses list different types of men. So if you can’t admit that, then you don’t have much of an argument.

What we can do, however, is to go to other parts of scripture to see how God operates. And we can see that He isn’t trying to save all men,

 

[Hammster]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe this is a lie?






JLB

I think it’s true that all who are believing will have eternal life.

 

[John Mullally]

Then your argument is nothing more than a house of cards. You know that pas can also mean all types. So there’s nothing in 1 Timothy 2:4 that indicates that it must mean “all without exception”. Even if you look at the context, it could mean all types because the previous verses list different types of men. So if you can’t admit that, then you don’t have much of an argument.

What we can do, however, is to go to other parts of scripture to see how God operates. And we can see that He isn’t trying to save all men,

John MacArthur and John Piper are on the record for saying that God desires all men to be saved. If God desires different types of men to be saved why didn't Paul just say that.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 makes no sense if you exchange every instance of "all men" with "all types of men" and using a mixture of "all" and "all types" is worse.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time​

​

Similarly, 1 Timothy 4:10 states: “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” Notice that the term “all men” at 1 Timothy 4:10 means more than just believers, and also notice that the same term also appears at 1 Timothy 2:4. It is simply unreasonable to think that the term “all men” means one thing at 1 Timothy 2:4 and then a completely different thing at 1 Timothy 4:10. Consistency demands that the term “all men” be understood the same. Ultimately, prayers are encouraged indiscriminately for our political leaders, even the bad ones, so that (a) we can live peaceful lives, and (b) since God desires for even them to become saved, as a factor of God desiring “all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

 

[Hammster]

John MacArthur and John Piper are on the record for saying that God desires all men to be saved. If God desires different types of men to be saved why didn't Paul just say that.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 makes no sense if you exchange every instance of "all men" with "all types of men" and using a mixture of "all" and "all types" is worse.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time​

​

Similarly, 1 Timothy 4:10 states: “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” Notice that the term “all men” at 1 Timothy 4:10 means more than just believers, and also notice that the same term also appears at 1 Timothy 2:4. It is simply unreasonable to think that the term “all men” means one thing at 1 Timothy 2:4 and then a completely different thing at 1 Timothy 4:10. Consistency demands that the term “all men” be understood the same. Ultimately, prayers are encouraged indiscriminately for our political leaders, even the bad ones, so that (a) we can live peaceful lives, and (b) since God desires for even them to become saved, as a factor of God desiring “all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

That is completely a non sequitur to my post. And a straw man.

 

[zoidar]

I’ll ask you the same question. Is there any other linguistic possibility to this verse that could mean mean something different? In other words, could pas mean all types?

Yes, sure it could, but does it?

 

[John Mullally]

That is completely a non sequitur to my post. And a straw man.

You really are a poor communicator.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, sure it could, but does it?

I think it does, and here’s why. First, as I’ve tried to show in my thread, we have countless examples from scripture that shows God didn’t try to save everyone. In fact, in order to show His glory, He hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that the Passover could happen, the Israelites would be set free, Pharaoh would chase after them, and die in the Red Sea.

Not to mention, God actually had a chosen people. This means that everyone else wasn’t chosen.

Then, look at the text.

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-4

I think this is similar to Titus 2.

But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us. Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
— Titus 2:1-12

I think “all men” is used similarly. There’s a list of different types of people, Paul sums it up by saying all types of people, which can be the way it’s understood grammatically.