JohnCJ said:
Because you said "It seems to me that God only has to be powerful enough to create the universe," which would would set the parameter for me to refute, if is assuming 1 universe or space time.
Ah, I see the problem. It's a communication problem.
1. Any other spacetimes right now are pure speculation. There has been absolutely no testing of them. Therefore you can't use them as evidence to refute my statement.
2. "the universe" was a vague term. It simply meant "everthing material that exists". If you look at the guys speculating about alternate spacetimes, they end up calling the entire group of spacetimes "the universe".
So, the question still remains: God has to be powerful enough to create. Why does God
have to be omnipotent?
If God existed outside of the dimension of time thus putting or stretching his existance outside of this space-time then we would not be tied down to our concept of time.
I don't see how that matters in this context. We would still be faced with the question of the origin of God, whether that was in our conventional spacetime or not. We are still contemplating a situation where God does not exist, and then does. What you are doing with "outside of time" is still the duck of "God always existed." That's still begging the question.
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
He is the beginning he is the end so for him to 'have his hands' in this space time he would have to know everyting always as demonstrated by the simple picture below.
This is the view Paul gave of God. But it doesn't imply what you say it does. Paul is simply saying that God was here before humans were around and will be here at the end of time. For Paul that meant the Second Coming. Now, God can also, as sustainer of the universe, be "which is to come" without knowing
what is to come.
The Hawking use of imaginary time is a condition shortly after the singularity when all 3 space dimensions and time were the same dimension. What you missed is that this makes a universe
without a beginning. In Hawking's words, space is finite but unbounded.
There is no creation! The article you quoted doesn't have the entire No Boundary Proposal in it. So, to see you trying to use No Boundary to bolster the case for God is very ironic, since Hawking says that No Boundary removes God as Creator. Instead, the universe has no Creator; it just
is.
Now, Hawking's No Boundary also has never been tested. What's worse, it doesn't appear that it
can be. It will give a universe like we see, but only if you arbitrarily pick the parameters such as imaginary time. Thus there is no way to test No Boundary because it doesn't have any consequences other theories don't.
No that was the worst logic trap I have ever seen, I was only humoring you.
God can be the creation as he is 'Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. '
We are not discussing whether God is the Creator. We are discussing whether God is omnipotent. Please try to stay on topic. The question shows that logically, God can't be omnipotent. Now, does that matter?
Well if 'data' is tied to this space-time you can say he cannot be proven,
You can't even say it about this spacetime. If we can find a way around Methodological Materialism, we can test directly. Or, if we can propose a method that only God can use and then find the method, we may still be able to make the conclusion.
but 'data' tied to all space time would exits but I don't believe 'we' will be able to find it.
How does having more spacetimes "prove" the existence of God? Why would God be
required to get those spacetimes. The current speculations on the origin of those spacetimes don't include God.
There is no way to define entity in this context unless you make it up, you have no way of knowing what God can and can't know.
You go at it from the other end. Can the exact position and momentum of an electron be known at the same time? NO! The information can't be known. In a group of 100 C14 atoms, can it be known
which atom will decay next? NO! It can't be known. In a stream of photons hitting a mirror, 95% get reflected and 5% pass thru. Can it be known
which photons will go thru? NO! Quantum mechanics don't match our common sense, but the data and math is very clear. The information simply can't be known.
This then leads to the next question, which is theological: why would God created a universe such that He can't know the future of that universe in detail? That's where the fun really is, not arguing against data that is inarguable.
Well I refer you to the Bible
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
This doesn't say God is omniscient, just that He was around at the beginning of the universe and will be there at the ending.
God is everything and anything accocitated with anything.
Be careful here. You just left Christianity and became panentheistic. God is
not "everything". God is separate from His Creation.
await your handwaving: Can God create a rock He cannot lift? Either possible answer has God not being omnipotent.
