Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[BobRyan]

The 39 books were already canonized by the Jews according to Josephus before the time of Christ and they did not include "those ten other books'.

The 27 books of the NT were all written AND read in the NT before A.D. 100. And before the RCC.

Every council appealed to by the RCC is after that time. Nobody in the NT pre-100 A.D. age was arguing "well we are reading Paul -- but will wait a few hundred years for a council to tell us whether to believe him"

As I am sure we all agree.

This entire diversion is a red herring. Back to the actual topic.

sola scriptura as DEMONSTRATED - in the Bible.

Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Nor does Christ make the circular argument "your doctrine is unholy because it is unholy" -

This is a "not so subtle point" that keeps getting glossed over. circular arguments don't work.

Nor does Christ say "you do not have your scripture confirmed by an outside source"

Nor does Christ say "ignore the scripture I am quoting to prove you are in error"

We are talking about slamming the traditions of the church via the Mark 7 method - sola scriptura - where it is found to be in conflict with the Word of God.

Christ makes no appeal to Tradition in that text above - rather He appeals to scripture to hammer tradition.

 

[Goatee]

Theomatics is not important! The word of God is!

God gave us the Word. Jesus gave us the 'Church', the True Church, which 'Tradition', the Holy Spirit, will always protect and work with.

 

[BobRyan]

same song as the Jews were singing in Mark 7 -- second verse. And they were introduced to the way that supposedly infallible, sacred, holy tradition is hammered by the sola scriptura method demonstrated in Mark 7:6-13

 

[BobRyan]

Well, I don't take human precepts above those of God, .

Same claim the Jews were making in Mark 7:6-13... but in their cast that claim did not survive the test of "Sola Scriptura" used by Christ in those very verses.

 

[BobRyan]

We don't like quoting Scripture out of context.

everybody "says that" but few can pass the sola scriptura test.

When you quote the text out of context you get pretext.

Which is why I don''t do it.

Jesus was speaking of specific acts the Pharisees were denouncing him for not doing, and proclaiming what they do with their actions to be not from their hearts, and therefore, wrong.

Wrong.

1. In Mark 7 they are condemning Christ "from their heart" but their worship to God is called in question.
2. In Mark 7 Jesus points to the "Corban" tradition (not something they accused Christ of - at all) and demonstrated how that tradition did not pass the "sola scriptura test".
3. In Mark 7 - Jesus then argues that because some of their traditions are proven to be error - they no longer can make the argument "It is our tradition so it must therefore be sacred, holy, infallible " -- that argument was defused by the sola scriptura proven test made by Christ in Mark 7 - against the one true holy nation church started by God at Sinai.

 

[tulipbee]

Theomatics is not important! The word of God is!

God gave us the Word. Jesus gave us the 'Church', the True Church, which 'Tradition', the Holy Spirit, will always protect and work with.
[/QE]
.

Sorry, I don't beat dead horses. This phenomenal discovery by Panin has been examined by numerous authorities and the figures have been verified

 

[Goatee]

Sorry, I don't beat dead horses. This phenomenal discovery by Panin has been examined by numerous authorities and the figures have been verified

God is my authority.

 

[Goatee]

Mark 7 is about 'OT' scripture! The Old Covenants. NT scripture was only starting! Jesus was on about OT Scripture!! Jesus brought the New Covenant! New teachings! Apostles! A new 'Tradition'. The Holy Spirit working through the 'Church'.

 

[Root of Jesse]

There are hundreds of books. As time went on, it ended up with a complete 66 books. It doesn't matter how it got there. It matters that the holy spirit made it end up that way. While the reformed was moved by the spirit, it still ended up 66 books and a man discovered new facts about it at the right time. Never mind Luther. Luther story is different from yours. Skip over Luther and the rest and take the bible and find out whats it is all about. It doesn't matter if I have whatever authority to say or think.. The facts are still there no matter how you argue about it. The facts are in plain view and it is exposed for everyone to investigate my posts. Do the calculations yourself. Don't bother me about the facts already there. You'll have to do your own homework. All unregenerates don't want to try.

What was the criterion that distilled the Bible down to your 66 books, do you know? I know how the Canon of Scripture came to be, and it was settled very early on at 73. Man, particularly Luther and his colleagues, decided that some didn't belong. In fact Luther wanted to remove several NT books, too. These are facts. What you're saying is your feeling. Why do I need to make any calculations? God has delivered His Canon complete.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Sure I can. Look up Ivan panin and read about his works or food a quick overview visit http://www.theomatics.com It is absolutely, completely, and totally impossible to mathematically disprove theomatics. The overall validity of this discovery ~ the fact that God did it ~ is unimpeachable. Theomatics will never be disproven. In fact, no one will even come close to it. The evidence is so thoroughly convincing and so absolutely conclusive, that those who examine it carefully, their knees will buckle and they will quite literally fall to the ground ~ they will not be able to stand up against it.

Ivan Panin has no authority. It's impossible to spiritually prove theomatics.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The 39 books were already canonized by the Jews according to Josephus before the time of Christ and they did not include "those ten other books'.

The 27 books of the NT were all written AND read in the NT before A.D. 100. And before the RCC.

Every council appealed to by the RCC is after that time. Nobody in the NT pre-100 A.D. age was arguing "well we are reading Paul -- but will wait a few hundred years for a council to tell us whether to believe him"

As I am sure we all agree.

This entire diversion is a red herring. Back to the actual topic.

sola scriptura as DEMONSTRATED - in the Bible.

Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Nor does Christ make the circular argument "your doctrine is unholy because it is unholy" -

This is a "not so subtle point" that keeps getting glossed over. circular arguments don't work.

Nor does Christ say "you do not have your scripture confirmed by an outside source"

Nor does Christ say "ignore the scripture I am quoting to prove you are in error"

We are talking about slamming the traditions of the church via the Mark 7 method - sola scriptura - where it is found to be in conflict with the Word of God.

Christ makes no appeal to Tradition in that text above - rather He appeals to scripture to hammer tradition.

Actually, they weren't. There were competing canons in Jesus' time. That's why Sadducees had only the Torah, and Pharisees had a different canon and Essenes did, too. The Jewish canon came after the Catholic Canon.
And the Church came before the Canon. Christ instituted the Church. As Ephesians states "One faith, one Church, one Lord".

 

[Root of Jesse]

everybody "says that" but few can pass the sola scriptura test.



Which is why I don''t do it.



Wrong.

1. In Mark 7 they are condemning Christ "from their heart" but their worship to God is called in question.
2. In Mark 7 Jesus points to the "Corban" tradition (not something they accused Christ of - at all) and demonstrated how that tradition did not pass the "sola scriptura test".
3. In Mark 7 - Jesus then argues that because some of their traditions are proven to be error - they no longer can make the argument "It is our tradition so it must therefore be sacred, holy, infallible " -- that argument was defused by the sola scriptura proven test made by Christ in Mark 7 - against the one true holy nation church started by God at Sinai.

But you don't take the whole of Scripture organically, which is required.

Yep, he was speaking SPECIFICALLY to the Pharisaic tradition. Thanks for making my point.

 

[tulipbee]

What was the criterion that distilled the Bible down to your 66 books, do you know? I know how the Canon of Scripture came to be, and it was settled very early on at 73. Man, particularly Luther and his colleagues, decided that some didn't belong. In fact Luther wanted to remove several NT books, too. These are facts. What you're saying is your feeling. Why do I need to make any calculations? God has delivered His Canon complete.

It settled to 66 books and God was the cause. The result is the 66 book as it is and where it is. You'll find them in many places. How it got there doesn't matter cause the proofs are in every single 66 book bible. God removed the extra books cause He wasn't the author of them and the new calculations are the proof of that, today but you're scared you'll know the truth cause you don't want to leave your comfort zone when Satan lives.

 

[tulipbee]

Ivan Panin has no authority. It's impossible to spiritually prove theomatics.

Neither does your elementary math teacher. He or she showed you 2+2=4. No one need the authority that one apple and another apple makes two apples. Your intelligence are showing

 

[heatedmonk]

Edit. What was I thinking?

 

[tulipbee]

But you don't take the whole of Scripture organically, which is required.

Yep, he was speaking SPECIFICALLY to the Pharisaic tradition. Thanks for making my point.

What God inspires IS organic. The forefathers made the GMO bible and now the RCC is big. Be careful with the " too big to fail" attitude. The second coming is going to wipe RCC clear in a twink of an eye.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It settled to 66 books and God was the cause. The result is the 66 book as it is and where it is. You'll find them in many places. How it got there doesn't matter cause the proofs are in every single 66 book bible. God removed the extra books cause He wasn't the author of them and the new calculations are the proof of that, today but you're scared you'll know the truth cause you don't want to leave your comfort zone when Satan lives.

So now, you claim you speak for God. The Church, whom God gave the authority to speak for Him, settled it at 73. And it does matter how they came to be Canonical. Regarding your innovation, there is nothing new in Christianity, hasn't been since the day Christ rose from the dead.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Neither does your elementary math teacher. He or she showed you 2+2=4. No one need the authority that one apple and another apple makes two apples. Your intelligence are showing

My math teacher had authority. It's called education, and a license. Peter and the apostles were given education and authority (What you open, no one may shut, what you shut no one may open), license, to teach as well. I don't see any such thing for Panin.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What God inspires IS organic. The forefathers made the GMO bible and now the RCC is big. Be careful with the " too big to fail" attitude. The second coming is going to wipe RCC clear in a twink of an eye.

I don't know what GMO bible is, but I don't kowtow to strength in numbers. Lots of Catholics have their faith wrong. Christ exhibited that he's not interested in numbers of followers when he proclaimed that his disciples must eat his flesh and drink his blood. When they reviled him, he just let them go back to their former lives.
God's word is organic. It is the whole of written Scripture, and the whole of Sacred Tradition. Remove anything, and you weaken the whole Truth.

 

[Goatee]

What God inspires IS organic. The forefathers made the GMO bible and now the RCC is big. Be careful with the " too big to fail" attitude. The second coming is going to wipe RCC clear in a twink of an eye.

Catholic hatred again!!! Oh dear