Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[tulipbee]

Some calvinists do believe that -- but most of the rest of us do not - probably because of Romans 10.

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Doesn't matter who believes it, it's the result of God's will

 

[tulipbee]

Protestants label those books "Apocrypha" in order to imply what you suggest. Actually they were called Deuterocanonical by the early Church. Books like the gnostic Gospels were labeled as apocrypha.

But you raise a good point. Scripture itself does not state which books are "canonical" and which are "apocryphal". Individual books need to be "measured" against something for authenticity (the meaning of the Greek word "canon" is "rule", as in a measuring rule). But under sola scriptura, only Scripture itself can be used as a measure.

I'm not arguing that the right measure is the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, Calvin's Institutes, Benny Hinn, or alien communication from some distant planet. I am simply stating that the Bible is not auto-authenticating. Something other than the Bible has to tell you what books are in the Bible.

No one made themselves clear, that's why God authenticated the 66 books. Leave it alone and let it be solo

 

[Goatee]

No one made themselves clear, that's why God authenticated the 66 books. Leave it alone and let it be solo

Martin Luther didn’t like 7 books of the Old Testament that disagreed with his personal view of theology!! It was not from the Holy spirit but from man! You really are lost aren't you.

Some more info for you:

http://www.catholicbible101.com/thebible73or66books.htm

Read it properly and you will see why Luther wanted the things he did. He really wanted to mess around the books of both the OT and the NT!!

Quote:

Initially, Luther wanted to kick out some New Testament Books as well, including James, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation. He actually said that he wanted to “throw Jimmy into the fire”, and that the book of James was “an epistle of straw.” What is strange is that Luther eventually accepted all 27 books of the New Testament that the Catholic Pope Damasus I had approved of in 382 AD, but didn’t accept his Old Testament list, preferring instead to agree with the Jews of 90 AD. Luther really didn’t care much for Jews, and wrote an encyclical advocating the burning of their synagogues, which seems like a dichotomy.

 

[tulipbee]

Martin Luther didn’t like 7 books of the Old Testament that disagreed with his personal view of theology!! It was not from the Holy spirit but from man! You really are lost aren't you.

Some more info for you:

http://www.catholicbible101.com/thebible73or66books.htm

Read it properly and you will see why Luther wanted the things he did. He really wanted to mess around the books of both the OT and the NT!!

Quote:

Initially, Luther wanted to kick out some New Testament Books as well, including James, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation. He actually said that he wanted to “throw Jimmy into the fire”, and that the book of James was “an epistle of straw.” What is strange is that Luther eventually accepted all 27 books of the New Testament that the Catholic Pope Damasus I had approved of in 382 AD, but didn’t accept his Old Testament list, preferring instead to agree with the Jews of 90 AD. Luther really didn’t care much for Jews, and wrote an encyclical advocating the burning of their synagogues, which seems like a dichotomy.

I don't do Lutherism. Thank God prevented that from happening. Return to the 66 book bible and stop being gungho on boring stuff.

 

[Goatee]

I don't do Lutherism. Thank God prevented that from happening. Return to the 66 book bible and stop being gungho on boring stuff.

Boring! lol

Proves you are the type to pic and choose scripture then!! lol

 

[tulipbee]

Boring! lol

Proves you are the type to pic and choose scripture then!! lol

If you stick with the bible and sola scriptura will keep you from going all over the place and following corrupted men. Flee from useless traditions and return to the true universal Catholic church

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68604620, member: 235244"]Some calvinists do believe that -- but most of the rest of us do not - probably because of Romans 10.

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation[/QUOTE]

Doesn't matter who believes it, it's the result of God's will

That is stated as an exact contradiction of Romans 10 - you are free to do that. No mention of "will of God" in Romans 10 ..

Maybe you were thinking of 2Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that all should come to repentance".

Or was it Luke 7:30 you were thinking of "they rejected God's purpose for them"

"I will draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32

"God so loved the world...yes really" John 3:16 paraphrase

If you stick with the bible and sola scriptura will keep you from going all over the place

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Goatee]

If you stick with the bible and sola scriptura will keep you from going all over the place and following corrupted men. Flee from useless traditions and return to the true universal Catholic church

Thing is, what tells you then that what you read from the bible is the correct meaning of different verses, etc? Is it your own interpretation?

 

[BobRyan]

Thing is, what tells you then that what you read from the bible is the correct meaning of different verses, etc? Is it your own interpretation?

No - it is the Holy Spirit "who will guide you into all truth" John 16 as long as man-made traditions in the RCC or Calvinism are not standing in your way.

And so in Mark 7 the point is soooo incredibly obvious that they do not ask 'whose interpretation are you using?"

==============================

Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Nor does Christ make the circular argument "your doctrine is unholy because it is unholy" -

This is a "not so subtle point" that keeps getting glossed over. circular arguments don't work.

Nor does Christ say "you do not have your scripture confirmed by an outside source"

Nor does Christ say "ignore the scripture I am quoting to prove you are in error"

We are talking about slamming the traditions of the church via the Mark 7 method - sola scriptura - where it is found to be in conflict with the Word of God.

Christ makes no appeal to Tradition in that text above - rather He appeals to scripture to hammer tradition.

No Jew in Mark 7 would respond "I see you appeal to Catholic tradition in that statement"

 

[Goatee]

No - it is the Holy Spirit "who will guide you into all truth" John 16 as long as man-made traditions in the RCC or Calvinism are not standing in your way.

And so in Mark 7 the point is soooo incredibly obvious that they do not ask 'whose interpretation are you using?"

==============================

Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Nor does Christ make the circular argument "your doctrine is unholy because it is unholy" -

This is a "not so subtle point" that keeps getting glossed over. circular arguments don't work.

Nor does Christ say "you do not have your scripture confirmed by an outside source"

Nor does Christ say "ignore the scripture I am quoting to prove you are in error"

We are talking about slamming the traditions of the church via the Mark 7 method - sola scriptura - where it is found to be in conflict with the Word of God.

Christ makes no appeal to Tradition in that text above - rather He appeals to scripture to hammer tradition.

No Jew in Mark 7 would respond "I see you appeal to Catholic tradition in that statement"

But, and a big one, Mark 7 is on about 'old' scripture, so to say. With Jesus came the 'New Church'. It is the 'Tradition' of the new church, which was not yet formed 100% that the Holy Spirit works through!

Mark 7 was on about 'mens tradition' of times 'GONE BY!' The 'New' Church of Christ was just starting!!

 

[Root of Jesse]

Universal Catholic church still stands and will always be that.

God did

Amen to that. The Universal Church, the Catholic Church, still stands, though human will has fragmented it.

God did not say those books are not inspired.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No one made themselves clear, that's why God authenticated the 66 books. Leave it alone and let it be solo

It's against Scripture to subtract from it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No - it is the Holy Spirit "who will guide you into all truth" John 16 as long as man-made traditions in the RCC or Calvinism are not standing in your way.

And so in Mark 7 the point is soooo incredibly obvious that they do not ask 'whose interpretation are you using?"

==============================

Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Nor does Christ make the circular argument "your doctrine is unholy because it is unholy" -

This is a "not so subtle point" that keeps getting glossed over. circular arguments don't work.

Nor does Christ say "you do not have your scripture confirmed by an outside source"

Nor does Christ say "ignore the scripture I am quoting to prove you are in error"

We are talking about slamming the traditions of the church via the Mark 7 method - sola scriptura - where it is found to be in conflict with the Word of God.

Christ makes no appeal to Tradition in that text above - rather He appeals to scripture to hammer tradition.

No Jew in Mark 7 would respond "I see you appeal to Catholic tradition in that statement"

The Holy Spirit tells me that the Deuterocanonical books belong in Sacred Scripture. Refute that.

 

[tulipbee]

It's against Scripture to subtract from it.

Subtract nor add to the 66 books. It wasn't completed till the final 66 books. Uninspired book had to go to make it complete. Those were God's actions. Complain to Him, not me.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Subtract nor add to the 66 books. It wasn't completed till the final 66 books. Uninspired book had to go to make it complete. Those were God's actions. Complain to Him, not me.

Flag on the play. Who says they're uninspired? Nobody until Luther and Calvin. The Church determined those books to be Canonical 1200 years prior.

 

[tulipbee]

The Holy Spirit tells me that the Deuterocanonical books belong in Sacred Scripture. Refute that.

Refute? You have been scientifically blown away with physical proofs no one has yet challenged. There's real proof that your spirit is not of God. It can never be refuted cause its in plain view for the world to see.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Refute? You have been scientifically blown away with physical proofs no one has yet challenged. There's real proof that your spirit is not of God. It can never be refuted cause its in plain view for the world to see.

Prove your statement. Other than "It can never be refuted..." you're only offering your own opinion.

 

[tulipbee]

Flag on the play. Who says they're uninspired? Nobody until Luther and Calvin. The Church determined those books to be Canonical 1200 years prior.

God works that way. Boss Him about your complaints. he is the author of those 66 books and not the rest of them.

 

[tulipbee]

Prove your statement. Other than "It can never be refuted..." you're only offering your own opinion.

I did 10 times. You'll have to look deeper or drop it

 

[Root of Jesse]

God works that way. Boss Him about your complaints. he is the author of those 66 books and not the rest of them.

I'm not the one with complaints, buddy. He's also the author of the Deuterocanon. Prove otherwise.