Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Wgw]

Come on! Lucifer means "Light Bearer"!

Actually on Sardinia I believe henis venerated as a saint despite not being in the Roman martyrology; which raises the amusing prospect of someone venerating St. Lucifer!

Of course you are right to point out the name in a historical sense lacks the diabolical connotations which it has acquired due largely to mistranslation in the KJV. So that we for example have a number of occultists who have taken the name Lucien as a means of alluding to their sinister religious views.

 

[Albion]

You cited law and, specifically, the Constitution as something which requires interpretation.

I was afraid that was it. Well, chalk it up to a bad comparison. All I meant is that this is what governs regardless of whether each of us understands it fully and despite the fact that many people disagree on what it requires. I think my other example is better, don't you?

I believe the same is true of Scripture. To maintain unity there must be a final authority to provide interpretation. And frankly, I believe even Protestants would agree with me on that.

No, they don't. And it wouldn't matter anyway--not so far as Sola Scriptura is concerned.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Actually on Sardinia I believe henis venerated as a saint despite not being in the Roman martyrology; which raises the amusing prospect of someone venerating St. Lucifer!

Of course you are right to point out the name in a historical sense lacks the diabolical connotations which it has acquired due largely to mistranslation in the KJV. So that we for example have a number of occultists who have taken the name Lucien as a means of alluding to their sinister religious views.

I once asked a canon lawyer if it was permissible to name a child after one of the processors at the beginning of Mass. He asked which one, and I said the candle-bearer. He was about to shake his head when he realized what I was getting at...you know, the thurifer, the crucifer, and the lucifer...

 

[Standing Up]

Actually, this is seldom true.
Untrue as well. Sacred Tradition is based on Scripture.

No, Tradition (orally) is separate from Scripture (writing). Per RC Catechism,
76 In keeping with the Lord's command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

- orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit";33
- in writing "by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing".34

Now of course, RC, like EO/OO, will say they teach what was handed down orally. But of course, it is impossible to determine, especially given RC and EO/OO doctrine contradictions (filioque, Papacy, etc).

 

[Standing Up]

Why would you NOT celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on Sunday?

Mat. 28:1-4 and context of Christ at creation necessitates a sunset resurrection.

Sunday morning was Pentecost, giving of the Spirit.

 

[Standing Up]

What I took from his post is that the differences between the two truly is as superficial as their choice of vestments. There's no significant doctrinal difference at play. If the differences between them includes vestments and esoteric issues concerning polity and ecclesiology, it can be fairly said that they are very close indeed.

The relevance there is you claim they all "follow tradition" but have somehow reached different destinations with respect to core theological positions. His post shows that to be not true at all.

While that may (or may not depending on other EO and OO) be true, certainly it is obvious to every Christian that RC and EO/OO have followed different Traditions to arrive at diametrically opposed doctrines (Marian dogmas (except Theotokos), Papacy, filioque, type of bread at Pascha, nature of man, nature of sin, etc).

 

[SAAN]

Mat. 28:1-4 and context of Christ at creation necessitates a sunset resurrection.

Sunday morning was Pentecost, giving of the Spirit.

This is true, per scriptures, Jesus did rise from the grave shortly after the sun went down Saturday evening and did in fact rise early in the morning on the 1st day of the week.

 

[Albion]

I don't get that "Pentecost" part, though.

 

[Meowzltov]

This is true, per scriptures, Jesus did rise from the grave shortly after the sun went down Saturday evening and did in fact rise early in the morning on the 1st day of the week.

You can't have it both ways, they contradict.

 

[Meowzltov]

bump

 

[Meowzltov]

Mat. 28:1-4 and context of Christ at creation necessitates a sunset resurrection.

Except that Matthew 28:1-4 says he rose AT DAWN, when the women came. Nothing in these verses indicate a sunset resurrection like you say.

 

[Meowzltov]

Untrue as well. Sacred Tradition is based on Scripture.

Much of Sacred Tradition predates the canon.

 

[SAAN]

You can't have it both ways, they contradict.

No its true. He DID NOT rise at dawn and I have covered this in detail before. He all discovered he was gone at dawn, but he DID not rise sunday morning at dawn.

This is straight out the 1611 KJV and our current KJV

Matthew 28:1 1611 KJV
In the ende of the Sabbath, as it began to dawne towards the first day of the weeke, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.

Matthew 28:1(KJV)
28 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The day ended at sunset, so it clearly states as the Sabbath was ending and the 1st day of the week was beginning, he rose. The new day began when it got dark, so when it got dark, it was now Sunday and early in the morning on the 1st day of the week, just like the scriptures state.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Mat. 28:1-4 and context of Christ at creation necessitates a sunset resurrection.

Sunday morning was Pentecost, giving of the Spirit.

Sunday Morning was the day of Pentecost, in the Jewish way of counting. Yeah your interpretation is in McCovey Cove-a Splash Hit.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No its true. He DID NOT rise at dawn and I have covered this in detail before. He all discovered he was gone at dawn, but he DID not rise sunday morning at dawn.

This is straight out the 1611 KJV and our current KJV

Matthew 28:1 1611 KJV
In the ende of the Sabbath, as it began to dawne towards the first day of the weeke, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.

Matthew 28:1(KJV)
28 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The day ended at sunset, so it clearly states as the Sabbath was ending and the 1st day of the week was beginning, he rose. The new day began when it got dark, so when it got dark, it was now Sunday and early in the morning on the 1st day of the week, just like the scriptures state.

Ah, there's your problem KJV...or your interpretation...although we do celebrate Easter at Midnight (though some put it earlier to make it convenient...)

 

[SAAN]

-Matthew 27 shows they wanted a guard there until the 3rd day

Matthew 27:62-65
New King James Version (NKJV)
Pilate Sets a Guard
62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63 saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night[a] and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.”


-Matthew 28 shows after the sabbath was over the angel from heaven came and removed the stone, at this point the guards collapsed.

Matthew 28
New King James Version (NKJV)
He Is Risen
28 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door,[a] and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

-Luke 24 shows when they got there early at sunrise in the morning the tomb was already empty, so he rose before sunrise, so there goes the whole he rose at sunrise theory.

Luke 24
New King James Version (NKJV)
He Is Risen
24 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them,[a] came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it happened, as they were greatly[b] perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. 5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”

-Mark 16 shows when they got there at sunrise in the morning the tomb was already empty, so he rose before sunrise, so once again, there goes the whole he rose at sunrise theory.

Mark 16
New King James Version (NKJV)
He Is Risen
16 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 And they said among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?” 4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away—for it was very large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.



-John 20 shows it was dark when they got to the tomb on Sunday and the tomb was empty, so yet another gospel shows he did not rise at sunrise and was already gone

John 20
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Empty Tomb
20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. 4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again to their own homes.

-All 4 gospels shows the Sabbath was over and it was now the 1rst day of the week and he had already risen from the grave before the sun rose. Mathew 28 is the only one that gives an account of when the angel came and it was after the Sabbath or while the Sabbath was ending going on to the 1rst day of the week, so the "he rose at sunrise" is false and "he rose on the Sabbath is also False".

 

[Meowzltov]

No its true. He DID NOT rise at dawn and I have covered this in detail before. He all discovered he was gone at dawn, but he DID not rise sunday morning at dawn.

This is straight out the 1611 KJV and our current KJV

Matthew 28:1 1611 KJV
In the ende of the Sabbath, as it began to dawne towards the first day of the weeke, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.

Matthew 28:1(KJV)
28 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The day ended at sunset, so it clearly states as the Sabbath was ending and the 1st day of the week was beginning, he rose. The new day began when it got dark, so when it got dark, it was now Sunday and early in the morning on the 1st day of the week, just like the scriptures state.

Morning is not just after Shabbat ends. All for gospels say that it was early in the morning. Matthew 1:2-4 follow up the women coming to the tomb with an account of the resurrection, meaning that Christ rose as the women were coming to the tomb.

 

[Standing Up]

I don't get that "Pentecost" part, though.

Pentecost is always on a Sunday. Pascha was a floating observance.

 

[Meowzltov]

This is straight out the 1611 KJV and our current KJV

Who really cares what translation you are using.

 

[Standing Up]

Except that Matthew 28:1-4 says he rose AT DAWN, when the women came. Nothing in these verses indicate a sunset resurrection like you say.

We're getting off topic. Suffice to say this. Compare the guards' reaction and the women's reaction at the tomb.