Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

patricius79 said:

I don't see that. We must be united with Christ through a death like his. The Bible teaches that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul says that we must suffer with Christ in order to be raised with him. And he says that some will suffer loss and be saved, but only as through fire.

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James is talking about doing good works as a product of your salvation rather than doing it to be saved. Otherwise, how would you explain Ephesians 2:8-9

" For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

The Bible does not say that our salvation depends upon our doing good works. It says that good works are necessary, and that good works will come as a result of our being saved because the Holy Spirit will lead us and prompt us to display the Fruit of the Spirit. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that faith in Jesus Christ is secondary to good works, or that people who do not believe in Jesus Christ will be saved if they do good works and have reverence for God. Neither is there any foundation to claim that at the time of judgment many Christians will not be saved because they were not good enough, that they will lose their salvation even if they believe Jesus dies for our sins. Such teachings are not founded on the gospel message.

jason_delisle said:

James is talking about doing good works as a product of your salvation rather than doing it to be saved. Otherwise, how would you explain Ephesians 2:8-9

" For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

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Because he is talking about works done of ourselves, or works of the law. James is saying that we are justified by works done in Christ, and not by faith alone.

That's why Paul says that we must work out our salvation, and that are justified by faith working through love, and that eternal life is rendered according to good works, and that we cannot be saved unless we suffer with Christ.

jason_delisle said:

You know, the Roman Catholic Church made a lot of money back in the day by convincing people they could "buy" people out of purgatory with a generous donation to the church.

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Do you think it was only back in the day, since indulgences are being granted as we speak. Not sure what they cost, but that is certainly a good reason to keep this myth alive.

jason_delisle said:

The Bible does not say that our salvation depends upon our doing good works. It says that good works are necessary, and that good works will come as a result of our being saved because the Holy Spirit will lead us and prompt us to display the Fruit of the Spirit. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that faith in Jesus Christ is secondary to good works,.

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Faith is primary, yes, and we must work out our salvation, as St. Paul says. He says that eternal life is rendered according to our good works, and that it is the doers of the law who will be justified.

Job8 said:

Do you think it was only back in the day, since indulgences are being granted as we speak. Not sure what they cost, but that is certainly a good reason to keep this myth alive.

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I think that people who criticize all forms of indulgences may not know what they are.

patricius79 said:

Because he is talking about works done of ourselves, or works of the law. James is saying that we are justified by works done in Christ, and not by faith alone.

That's why Paul says that we must work out our salvation, and that are justified by faith working through love, and that eternal life is rendered according to good works, and that we cannot be saved unless we suffer with Christ.

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Reference please.

Are you referring to philippians 2?

patricius79 said:

I think that people who criticize all forms of indulgences may not know what they are.

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I know it is another doctrine that is not biblically justified.

patricius79 said:

Because he is talking about works done of ourselves, or works of the law. James is saying that we are justified by works done in Christ, and not by faith alone.

That's why Paul says that we must work out our salvation, and that are justified by faith working through love, and that eternal life is rendered according to good works, and that we cannot be saved unless we suffer with Christ.

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Philippians 2:18-19

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

This text is often used by the Roman Catholic Church to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our salvation. The Greek word translated "fear" in this context can equally mean "reverence" or "respect." Paul uses the same phrase in (2 Corinthians 7:15) where he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” that is, with great humility and respect for his position as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” (1 Corinthians 2:3), mindful of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. "Trembling" can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe.

jason_delisle said:

I know it is another doctrine that is not biblically justified.

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I'm not sure what you're basing that on inasmuch as your statements up to this point have not given any indication that you understand what they are or what they do.

thecolorsblend said:

I'm not sure what you're basing that on inasmuch as your statements up to this point have not given any indication that you understand what they are or what they do.

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According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an indulgence is “the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven. A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial if it removes part of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary if it removes all punishment.”

jason_delisle said:

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an indulgence is “the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven. A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial if it removes part of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary if it removes all punishment.”

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Well done.

thecolorsblend said:

Well done.

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Thank you....still does not have biblical justification.

You, and my hat is off, are the master of the moving goal post. It doesn't matter how many times you claim a Catholic doctrine to be wrong only to be corrected either by myself or someone else, you keep coming up with new challenges. "Maybe *THIS* will be the one that finally trips them up!"

My hunch is that we could go through the entire Catechism and when it was all over you'd still invent some other silly thing as "unjustified". Is that an accurate assessment?

jason_delisle said:

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That being the case, why should any of us continue replying to you?

Ok...I will come out with it. I absolutely had no desire to convert you are to change your mind about anything. I wouldn't call myself a troll by any means. Rather "devil's advocate " (rather ironic considering the topic). The intent is that the readers of this thread will be able to see different arguments and make a decision for themselves based on the information provided. That's all. I still really don't care for catholic beliefs but I have no quarrel with catholics.

And yes...I already hashed it out with mormons......and atheists, jews, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Baptists.

patricius79 said:

I think that people who criticize all forms of indulgences may not know what they are.

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Indulgences are a fiction that was invented to go along with the fiction of purgatory.

No Purgatory -- then ... no indulgences.

The fiction of indulgences is based on the concept of a "spiritual bank of suffering" where saints and also Christ put into the bank all the "excess suffering" that they did not deserve. The RCC then takes over the Bank (or at the very least gets the right to produce checks going against that great account in the bank) -- and it claims to give you a check for a certain amount of suffering based on some "deed" that you have done. In some cases it is a "plenary indulgence" was has unlimited funding to cover whatever your loved one might "need" to get them out of Purgatory - by way of substituionary suffering of some other saint on their behalf.

Once out of Purgatory - they go straight in to heaven.

patricius79 said:

I know that Jesus was delivered over to death for the sake of ours sins, and raised for our justification. God will render to each according to their works: eternal life to those who seek glory honor and immorality though perseverance in good works. Paul says that we will be saved provided that we suffer with him. We are saved by faith working through love. We must enter the Kingdom of God through many tribulations. We work out our salvation through fear and trembling. See that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. He who endures to the end will be saved.

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That's right... interestingly, I don't see any reference to the 'church' in your synopsis. Through Christ and Christ alone...