Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[Zanting]

What was the purpose of quoting Ezekiel then?

Where do you see "works guaranteeing salvation " in that scripture? I don't see it anywhere.

Like I asked...perhaps you can define "works" as an OSAS believer.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I couldn't help but notice the controversy concerning leaving the faith etc.

1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

This scripture is so clear that to explain it almost requires that one restate it.

It says that those who went out were not really of us. If they had been one of us they would have stayed. Their leaving showed that they never really were one of us.

So what, if not the faith (correct doctrine - salvation), did they go out from. It wasn't a tent or a cave. It wasn't just a meeting hall. It was obviously the faith.

That is all very true.

But you have to be half blind not to see the point being taught by John.

The point is not that people who have had the true faith can leave the true faith and be lost.

The point is that anyone who leaves the true faith really never had it to begin with.

Some of you seem to be reading it, "The fact that they went out proves that they really were one of us."

That's quite an amazing twist, I must say. It really shows your agenda that you can do that with a straight face.

"seekingsolace" is absolutely right. You have to have an axe to grind or not be able to read english to miss that.

 

[Zanting]

Those who "went out from among them" never believed in the first place. So how does this scripture have anything to do with those OSAS?

 

[FreeGrace2]

OSAS...So will those who...in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils...still have the gift of eternal life?

What does "depart from the faith mean" to OSAS?

It means leaving the faith. No longer believing what they used to believe. Basically what apostasy is.

Rom 8:38 covers apostasy in the phrase "neither things present or things future…shall separate us from the love of Christ".

Also what Jesus said in John 10:28,29. The "no one" includes even the believe himself, as "no one" means "no person". And all believers are persons. So even the believe him/her self cannot separate themselves from God's hand.

Jesus was teaching eternal security in those 2 verses.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Those who "went out from among them" never believed in the first place. So how does this scripture have anything to do with those OSAS?

That scripture doesn't prove OSAS.

Neither does it prove that those who are saved can become unsaved. That is the point of my post.

The 1 John scripture has to do with OSAS only after someone insinuates that this scripture or others (like 1 Timothy 4:1 that teaches much the same thing) teach quite the opposite.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FG2, everyone will die a physical death. This is nothing new. Is everyone being disciplined by God, and must die a physical death?

The wages of sin is death, Paul says. Is this a physical death also?

Romans 6 -
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

If you sin, you are the slave to sin, resulting in death - physical or eternal?

If someone obeys, it is obvious they do not die - physical or eternal?

Why would one think every reference to life is eternal life?

Again, is everyone disciplined by God?

Better listen to your own advice.

Why would a person physically die if they make the right choices? God said they will live and not die.

So, Joshua and Caleb didn't die physically. I see where your arguments lead. I think I saw Joshua at the mall the other day; he sure looked old.

How is an early physical death a disciplinary action? Who would not want to pass on to the other side?

Should I disobey so I can be with Jesus quicker?

Maybe you can give us passages which speak of eternal death. I'm thinking it will also be associated with sin.

As I said before, physical death is only a passing to the other side, which is much more blissful than here. How is this dreadful to a believer?

Is physical death something to be feared by a believer?

When one is totally unfamiliar with the different types of "death" in Scripture, discussion about "death" will not be productive. It seems to me that there is no interest in even trying to understand any of this.

When a believer dies the "sin unto death", it is considered the ultimate discipline from God. We know from Heb 12:5 that God's divine disicipline can be very painful from "scourge" which in the Greek refers to being "skinned alive with a whip". Obviously that verse is figurative, but it is about painful discipline. What did Paul say about the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5? He was turned over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh". That is physical death at the hand of Satan. You really think Satan will make it quick and painless in that situation? Also, Paul noted others who had been turned over to Satan to "learn not to blaspheme" in 1 Tim 1:20.

I believe it would be prudent to understand that being turned over to Satan would be quite an unpleasant experience. Esp since we know that Satan "prowls around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour".

Does any of this sound like the way to go into eternity? Not for me.

This is the opposite of the picture the Bible paints of a faithful believer: Psa 116:15.

 

[Zanting]

It means leaving the faith. No longer believing what they used to believe. Basically what apostasy is.

Rom 8:38 covers apostasy in the phrase "neither things present or things future…shall separate us from the love of Christ".

Also what Jesus said in John 10:28,29. The "no one" includes even the believe himself, as "no one" means "no person". And all believers are persons. So even the believe him/her self cannot separate themselves from God's hand.

Jesus was teaching eternal security in those 2 verses.

Those verses are not about apostasy. They are about your protection as a Christian. There is no such thing as eternal security for those who "depart" from the faith, or fro those who never had it to begin with.

OSAS takes away one's freewill to "depart" from the faith.

 

[Zanting]

That scripture doesn't prove OSAS.

Neither does it prove that those who are saved can become unsaved. That is the point of my post.

The 1 John scripture has to do with OSAS only after someone insinuates that this scripture or others (like 1 Timothy 4:1 that teaches much the same thing) teach quite the opposite.

Sorry, I don't see the connection. One is referring to those never believed in the first place, going out from among believers, and the other is about those who depart from the faith. As has been pointed out many times...you cannot depart from something if you never had it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Sorry, I don't see the connection. One is referring to those never believed in the first place, going out from among believers, and the other is about those who depart from the faith. As has been pointed out many times...you cannot depart from something if you never had it.

I probably should have approached this from another angle.

My thoughts obviously didn't come through with the way I did it.

The point of bringing another scripture to bear on these things was to show that we can often explain apparent contradictions that we see by looking at other ways to see it - by looking at what may well be similar situations.

In the case of this thread we have the unambiguous statements in the scriptures that teach OSAS. Those who don't see those scriptures aren't paying attention.

On the other hand we have scriptures like the one in 1 Timothy that can be seen to teach the opposite of OSAS.

Since the Bible can't truly contradict itself - we have to at least try to find a solution to our dilemma.

It seems to many of us that the OSAS scriptures are pretty much unambiguous. The ones teaching the opposite can in almost all cases be seen in another light.

"seekingsolace" has been attempting to illustrate that concept here. My post was to illustrate one way that the 1 Timothy passage can be explained.

I obviously wasn't very clear.

Not as unclear as most of Lori's posts. But still unclear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those verses are not about apostasy. They are about your protection as a Christian. There is no such thing as eternal security for those who "depart" from the faith, or fro those who never had it to begin with.

Departing from the faith only refers to what man believes, or quits believing, which has nothing to do with salvation or eternal security. We are not held by our faith, but by God Himself. That's our security.

OSAS takes away one's freewill to "depart" from the faith.

Please provide Scriptural evidence for this claim. Jesus Himself noted those who would "believe for a while, and then because of testing, fall away". Your claim has been refuted from Scripture. Lu 8:13

 

[lori milne]

Departing from the faith only refers to what man believes, or quits believing, which has nothing to do with salvation or eternal security. We are not held by our faith, but by God Himself. That's our security. Please provide Scriptural evidence for this claim. Jesus Himself noted those who would "believe for a while, and then because of testing, fall away". Your claim has been refuted from Scripture. Lu 8:13

Your faith is to believe in the word of God If you stop believing you let go of your inheritance. Btw the kjv definition is based solely off what the bibles usage of the word in scripture. Being justified by faith. Rom. 5. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb. 11. For we walk by faith, and not by sight. 2Cor. 5. With the heart man believeth to righteousness. Rom. 10. KJV Dictionary / F / faith KJV Dictionary Definition: faith faith FAITH, n. L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable

1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.

 

[Zanting]

I probably should have approached this from another angle.

My thoughts obviously didn't come through with the way I did it.

The point of bringing another scripture to bear on these things was to show that we can often explain apparent contradictions that we see by looking at other ways to see it - by looking at what may well be similar situations.

In the case of this thread we have the unambiguous statements in the scriptures that teach OSAS. Those who don't see those scriptures aren't paying attention.

On the other hand we have scriptures like the one in 1 Timothy that can be seen to teach the opposite of OSAS.

Since the Bible can't truly contradict itself - we have to at least try to find a solution to our dilemma.

It seems to many of us that the OSAS scriptures are pretty much unambiguous. The ones teaching the opposite can in almost all cases be seen in another light.

"seekingsolace" has been attempting to illustrate that concept here. My post was to illustrate one way that the 1 Timothy passage can be explained.

I obviously wasn't very clear.

Not as unclear as most of Lori's posts. But still unclear.

Now this answer is clear and...

You're right...Those who do not believe in OSAS definitely read the scripture differently. Perhaps because there is not one scripture in the entire Bible that says once you have been saved, you will always be saved. Not one. However, there are scriptures in the Bible that clearly talk about the consequences of departing from the faith. And you are right...it cannot be both ways.

From what I have seen from the scriptural examples provided by OSAS to "prove" their claim, they have all been about the life of faithful Christians who endure to the end. They reflect the wonder of Gods almighty power for those who believe in His Son, Jesus, as their Savior.

And then there is free will

How can one's salvation take away the free will to reject Jesus, and why is departing from the faith even discussed in scripture if it is not possible to freely walk away from what you once believed without consequence.

 

[lori milne]

This scripture is clear and concise why's are you posting it. Works would be lavitical law and rituals that only the Jewish have and use without CHRIST . The passage even explains it's not that gentiles that do these laws at all but the Jews, The Jews were mad and pointing to Paul to explain this flaw. Works are not repentance or obeying Gods words ?

to seekingsolas I think it's clear I was responding to your reference to Romans 3-4 Were you speaking about works before righteousness

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your faith is to believe in the word of God If you stop believing you let go of your inheritance.

Please provide the verse that supports this claim.

 

[Zanting]

Departing from the faith only refers to what man believes, or quits believing, which has nothing to do with salvation or eternal security. We are not held by our faith, but by God Himself. That's our security.

Sorry, but I do believe we have to remain in the faith. We have to continuously pray, read the scriptures every day and always be searching for His truth until His return.



Please provide Scriptural evidence for this claim.

Well that is actually pretty clear, and most definitely not scriptural that according to OSAS believers, you have the free will to accept Jesus as your Savior, then after that, you don't have free will to walk away from that belief because you are saved now, and you always will be no matter what you do. You no longer have the free will to reject Jesus as your Savior.

Jesus Himself noted those who would "believe for a while, and then because of testing, fall away". Your claim has been refuted from Scripture. Lu 8:13

Are you sure? What do you think it means when it says "have no root" in that very same verse? Were they ever honest, truthful, heartfelt believers?

And to clarify...it is not "my claim." It is a very clearly stated and specific warning about the consequences of departing from faith, and the consequences for doing so. And like all scripture, I happen to believe everyone has the free will to reject their faith, and there are consequences for doing so. I do believe that those who reject Jesus as their once Lord and Savior, also reject their salvation. They no longer believe in Jesus Did they lose their salvation? No...they threw it away. Was it taken from them? No...they threw it away.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Perhaps because there is not one scripture in the entire Bible that says once you have been saved, you will always be saved. Not one.

First off - I appreciate your post. It's nice to see that we don't have to get into a food fight to disagree with each other.

I am amazed that you say there are no scriptures that say a person who has been saved will be kept saved by the Lord forever.

I'm really tempted to trot out a bunch of scriptures. But I've got to believe that you know what they are already.

How can one's salvation take away the free will to reject Jesus

Because we are a new creation with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. Our will is not taken away. Our will is simply made truly free to remain in Him.

and why is departing from the faith even discussed in scripture if it is not possible to freely walk away from what you once believed without consequence.

Believing in eternal security doesn't translate to believing that there are no consequences to the bad things we do in life.

I walked away from what I once believed for almost 15 years. I assure you that there were many consequences to that departure in this life and there will likely be in the life to come.

If someone from the church had seen and listened to me in those days they would have said that I was unsaved - that I had never really been one of them.

But they were wrong. God took me to the woodshed to bring me back to the faith. But in time it was shown that I really was saved.

I appreciate the many warnings from believers that I seemed to giving strong evidence that I had never been saved.

In many cases opinions that people are not saved are spot on when given to people who acted like me.

In my case I was truly saved and it was seen to be true in time.

Interestingly - it was exactly the kind of teaching that I hear from many here on this thread that caused me to depart the faith for a time. I was given the impression by the church that I was lost if I sinned. I was a lusty young man and I sinned so often you would hardly believe it if I told you much about it.

I simply could not live under such condemnation - believing I was saved for a time and then believing that I was not for a time - until I drummed up enough true repentance to salve my conscience.

I consciously walked away. I could not live that way.

Contrary to what is often taught - it is usually teaching against eternal security that causes people to depart from the faith. It is not the other way around.

One must receive correct teaching about the consequences of sin of course. But the knowledge that God will never leave me nor forsake me has kept me strong in Him for a long long time.

I've sinned many times over the years. But I am quick to repent precisely because I know that I will meet my savior in eternal joy someday.

I am convinced that nothing - not death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate me from the love of God and keep that joyful meeting from happening.

 

[Zanting]

First off - I appreciate your post. It's nice to see that we don't have to get into a food fight to disagree with each other.

Yes, I would not like to see that happen...although food fights can be fun in the right setting...

I am amazed that you say there are no scriptures that say a person who has been saved will be kept saved by the Lord forever.

It's not a belief I can grasp. It allows for a very slippery slope for the Christian. It gives the impression, whether acted upon or not, that you can carry on in your sinful life without consequence. Slippery slopes scare me...I could slip and break my neck.

I'm really tempted to trot out a bunch of scriptures. But I've got to believe that you know what they are already.

I appreciate that...and yes...many have been presented...

Because we are a new creation with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. Our will is not taken away. Our will is simply made truly free to remain in Him.

Is that not still a choice? As you said free to remain in Him...is not the opposite also true? Are we not also free to walk away from Him?

Believing in eternal security doesn't translate to believing that there are no consequences to the bad things we do in life.

Yes, the Bible says the wages of sin is death...pretty harsh consequence. So I would like to stay with the faith and be assured of eternal life.

I walked away from what I once believed for almost 15 years. I assure you that there were many consequences to that departure in this life and there will likely be in the life to come.

If someone from the church had seen and listened to me in those days they would have said that I was unsaved - that I had never really been one of them.

Well, isn't that what OSAS believers base their belief on? That you were never saved in the first place.

But they were wrong. God took me to the woodshed to bring me back to the faith. But in time it was shown that I really was saved.

Woodshed huh...nice analogy.

I appreciate the many warnings from believers that I seemed to giving strong evidence that I had never been saved.

In many cases opinions that people are not saved are spot on when given to people who acted like me.

In my case I was truly saved and it was seen to be true in time.


Why do you believe you were different from others who acted like you?

Interestingly - it was exactly the kind of teaching that I hear from many here on this thread that caused me to depart the faith for a time. I was given the impression by the church that I was lost if I sinned. I was a lusty young man and I sinned so often you would hardly believe it if I told you much about it.

I simply could not live under such condemnation - believing I was saved for a time and then believing that I was not for a time - until I drummed up enough true repentance to salve my conscience.

I know that teaching very well, and I certainly understand the impossible task of being without sin completely. But that isn't what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches us to resist the desires of the flesh. To emulate Jesus example to us and live according to the teaching He gave us.

As humans we have a sinful nature and will continue to sin. However, our life has been changed by the Holy Spirit with a desire to please our Father in heaven, and so we do resist our sinful nature, whereas before we resisted nothing. On that we both agree, I hope.

I consciously walked away. I could not live that way.

Yes, I walked away for many years, but for different reasons.
Contrary to what is often taught - it is usually teaching against eternal security that causes people to depart from the faith. It is not the other way around.

Well, I think that depends on who you talk to. I know an OSAS believer who believes you can do whatever you want as long as you go to confession. He even bragged about the Mafia being of the same faith as his.

In this case
One must receive correct teaching about the consequences of sin of course. But the knowledge that God will never leave me nor forsake me has kept me strong in Him for a long long time.

I have no problem believing that as long as I am in the will of God, following His lead, and repenting when I sin is all a part of my Christian walk. But if I choose to no longer do His will, and do not follow His lead, and do not repent when I sin, then I have thrown away the gift of salvation. And I did that when I walked away.

I've sinned many times over the years. But I am quick to repent precisely because I know that I will meet my savior in eternal joy someday.

You are quick to ask forgiveness. I am too, but why would you have to if your salvation is secure? Why would you be at all concerned of any sin if it can't affect your salvation?

I am convinced that nothing - not death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate me from the love of God and keep that joyful meeting from happening.

This is actually one of my favorite verses. It shows just how much power and control God has over anything that can attack me. I am safe. However, it does not protect me from myself. Here I suspect we differ, because I certainly believe that if I had died during the time I had departed from the faith, I would not have an eternal life in heaven. You, I suspect, believe you would have.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I know an OSAS believer who believes you can do whatever you want as long as you go to confession. He even bragged about the Mafia being of the same faith as his.

Was that the Roman Catholic faith?

If you don't mind my asking - out of curiosity - is that your faith as well?

 

[nobdysfool]

OSAS takes away one's freewill to "depart" from the faith.

I'm scratching my head, trying to figure out why anyone would think that this would be a good thing (departing from the faith)...

I've talked with free-willers before, and in most cases, when pressed, part of their definition of free will involves the ability to defy God. My question is, why would any Christian want to do that, and secondly, do you realize that defying God is what unsaved people do naturally?

 

[seekingsolace]

It seems pointless in dragging up verses already stated that quite clearly define salvation. I can see why it's far easier for a child to receive the truth than an adult, brings a lot more meaning to select passages in light of that too.