Reformed versus Calvinist

Status
Not open for further replies.

BereanTodd

Missionary Heart
Nov 26, 2006
2,448
281
48
Houston, Tx
✟11,542.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Lutherans do not -- and HAVE NEVER -- believed in consubstantiation.

Lutherans believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper. Christ's body and blood are "in, with, and under" the bread and the wine.

Lutherans adamantly REJECT 'consubstantiation" because it implies and adherence to a scientific explanation for Christ's Presence in the Supper. Lutherans see no need for such an explanation: it is a mystery.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

wikipedia said:
Consubstantiation is a theological doctrine that, like the competing theory of transubstantiation, attempts to describe the nature of the Christian Eucharist in concrete metaphysical terms. It holds that during the sacrament the fundamental "substance" of the body and blood of Christ are present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, which remain present. Transubstantiation differs from consubstantiation in that it postulates that through consecration, according to some, that one set of substances (bread and wine) is exchanged for another (the Body and Blood of Christ) or, according to others, that the reality of the bread and wine become the reality of the body and blood of Christ. The substance of the bread and wine do not remain, but their accidents (superficial properties like appearance and taste) remain.
Consubstantiation is commonly associated with the teachings of Martin Luther and Philipp Melanchthon, the latter actually employing the term with the approval of the former. Luther did teach that the body and blood of Christ are present "in, with, and under the forms" of bread and wine, and present-day Lutherans hold to this statement while disagreeing about its exact meaning. Some Lutherans use the term "consubstantiation" [citation needed] to refer to this belief, but the theology intended is not always the same as the philosophical theory described above. Luther illustrated his belief about the Eucharist "by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged," a concept which he called "sacramental union" , which is analogous to the Hypostatic Union of Christ's Divine and Human natures . Otherwise , the term Real Presence is also used to describe the Lutheran position in this regard . (Against the Heavenly Prophets (1525) and Confession Concerning Christ's Supper (1528) as quoted in The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337). Consubstantiation is affirmed by a minority of Christians, including some Lutherans and some Eastern Orthodox churches

Lutherans do NOT hold to transubstantiation as does the RCC. Consubstantiation is that Jesus is in the bread and wine, that is what consubstantiation is. It is the Lutheran belief.


Jesus said, "This is my body," therefore it is his body. The heretic Zwingli changed Christ's words to mean "This represents my body." Like Bill Clinton..."is" doesn't mean "is". Calvin, to his credit, saw Zwingli's interpretation for the lie that it is.

Jesus also said "IAM the vine" but I don't think he is literally a plant. He also said "IAM the door" but I don't think that he is either made out of wood nor does he have a handle on him. He said "IAM the bread of life" but I do not expect him to be made of flower or contain leaven.

The fact is that there is symbollic speach that is used at times. The question is whether Jesus' words at the Last Supper were symbollic or not. And that is where our disagreement lies ...
 
Upvote 0

BereanTodd

Missionary Heart
Nov 26, 2006
2,448
281
48
Houston, Tx
✟11,542.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I know this is leading off the OP but I am curious...

Arent most protestant denominations actually Reformed, only not as rigid?

Reformed has nothing to do with being rigid. It is a specific theological framework for understanding Scriptures. Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopals, Methodists, Baptists, Anabaptists, Charismatics ... none of us are reformed though some of the above may have been influenced on certain issues by reformed thought.

Reformed churches refers specifically to the Reformed movement from Switzerland and the Presbyterians who came out of them, begining in Scotland.
 
Upvote 0

KJVisTruth

HisInstructionsAreOurs,Ou rObstructionsAreHis
Sep 26, 2006
1,380
85
52
NE PA
✟17,057.00
Faith
Christian
Politics
US-Republican
Reformed has nothing to do with being rigid. It is a specific theological framework for understanding Scriptures. Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopals, Methodists, Baptists, Anabaptists, Charismatics ... none of us are reformed though some of the above may have been influenced on certain issues by reformed thought.

Reformed churches refers specifically to the Reformed movement from Switzerland and the Presbyterians who came out of them, begining in Scotland.
Oh I didnt mean "being" rigid, only in their theology. I should have used "firm" instead.

Presbyterians were what I was thinking of when I asked, and I wasnt sure about the other protestant denominations.

You all have been real helpful!
 
Upvote 0

BereanTodd

Missionary Heart
Nov 26, 2006
2,448
281
48
Houston, Tx
✟11,542.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No problem. Basically when you think about the Reformation you can think of four major lines of it that sprang up. You had Lutheranism and the Reformed movement that came up at basically the same time. Then you had later on the Anglican movement began in England. Then around the Reformed movement sprang up the anabaptists. From those four families come just about all of the denominations that we have today.

However, only those that draw direct descendancy from the Reformed movement would be described as Reformed Theologians.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KJVisTruth
Upvote 0

Robert_Barnes

Active Member
Mar 26, 2006
128
7
✟7,793.00
Faith
Lutheran
Sorry, but you are wrong.



Lutherans do NOT hold to transubstantiation as does the RCC. Consubstantiation is that Jesus is in the bread and wine, that is what consubstantiation is. It is the Lutheran belief.




Jesus also said "IAM the vine" but I don't think he is literally a plant. He also said "IAM the door" but I don't think that he is either made out of wood nor does he have a handle on him. He said "IAM the bread of life" but I do not expect him to be made of flower or contain leaven.

The fact is that there is symbollic speach that is used at times. The question is whether Jesus' words at the Last Supper were symbollic or not. And that is where our disagreement lies ...
Excuse me, sir.

I have a Master's Degree in Lutheran Theology. I know better than wikipedia what Lutherans do and do not believe.

The Book of Concord (www.bookofconcord.org), which is the definitive belief statement of the Augsburg Evangelical Catholic Church (the Lutherans), NOWHERE uses that word.

I don't care HOW MANY websites you can find that repeat the misinformation: an untruth told 1,000,000 times is STILL an untruth.
 
Upvote 0

BereanTodd

Missionary Heart
Nov 26, 2006
2,448
281
48
Houston, Tx
✟11,542.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I really don't care what degrees you hold. If you do not hold to consubstantiation, then what do you hold? Please describe the differences in consubstantiation and the Lutheran view!

Transubstantiation (RCC) teaches that the bread and wine literally, physically becomes the flesh and blood of Christ.

Consubstantiation teaches that it remains bread and wine, but that Jesus is IN it, that Jesus is with in and under the elements. That is consubstantiation. How does it differ from Lutheran views, since you claim that it does ...
 
Upvote 0

Iosias

Senior Contributor
Jul 18, 2004
8,171
227
✟9,648.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
I really don't care what degrees you hold. If you do not hold to consubstantiation, then what do you hold? Please describe the differences in consubstantiation and the Lutheran view!

Transubstantiation (RCC) teaches that the bread and wine literally, physically becomes the flesh and blood of Christ.

Consubstantiation teaches that it remains bread and wine, but that Jesus is IN it, that Jesus is with in and under the elements. That is consubstantiation. How does it differ from Lutheran views, since you claim that it does ...

Actually I am afraid it has certainly been questioned as to what Luther's view actually was. There was an interesting thread on it in a different forum: http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=18911http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=18911
 
Upvote 0

Robert_Barnes

Active Member
Mar 26, 2006
128
7
✟7,793.00
Faith
Lutheran
I really don't care what degrees you hold. If you do not hold to consubstantiation, then what do you hold? Please describe the differences in consubstantiation and the Lutheran view!

Transubstantiation (RCC) teaches that the bread and wine literally, physically becomes the flesh and blood of Christ.

Consubstantiation teaches that it remains bread and wine, but that Jesus is IN it, that Jesus is with in and under the elements. That is consubstantiation. How does it differ from Lutheran views, since you claim that it does ...
BOTH transubstantiation (TS) AND consubstantiation (CS) rest on an Aristotelian understanding of substans and accidens.

In TS, the substans of the bread and wine are said to change (into the substans of body and blood), while the accidens (the external features, such as look, smell and tatse) remain the same. (Your definition of TS above -- if not exactly incorrect -- shows a great misunderstanding of the doctrine.)

Lutherans rejected this explanation NOT because it is heretical or even unbiblical, but because it is unnecessary. Using a man-made philosophical system to unravel a biblical mystery is utter nonsense. These things of faith cannot be apprehended by our frail and weak minds.

Lutherans reject CS on two grounds:

CS suggests that the substans of the bread and wine are mixed and co-mingled with the body and the blood creating a new, uber substans. Lutherans DO NOT believe this. We believe that the bread is present, and that Christ's body is Present: but Lutherans do NOT believe that they are MIXED.

But aside from that, Lutherans reject CS for the same reason that they reject TS: no philosophical explanation is necessary. Lutherans simply believe what the Scriptures say.

From the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article X, Of the Holy Supper:
Article X: Of the Holy Supper.

54] The Tenth Article has been approved, in which we confess that we believe, that in the Lord's Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10, 16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord's body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord's body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh. And there is a long exposition of Cyril on John 15, in which he teaches that Christ is corporeally offered us in the Supper. For he says thus: Nevertheless, we do not deny that we are joined spiritually to Christ by true faith and sincere love. But that we have no mode of connection with Him, according to the flesh, this indeed we entirely deny. And this, we say, is altogether foreign to the divine Scriptures. For who has doubted that Christ is in this manner a vine, and we the branches, deriving thence life for ourselves? Hear Paul saying 1 Cor. 10, 17; Rom. 12, 5; Gal. 3, 28: We are all one body in Christ; although we are many, we are, nevertheless, one in Him; for we are, all partakers of that one bread. Does he perhaps think that the virtue of the mystical benediction is unknown to us? Since this is in us, does it not also, by the communication of Christ's flesh, cause Christ to dwell in us bodily? And a little after: Whence we must consider that Christ is in us not only according to the habit, which we call love, 57] but also by natural participation, etc. We have cited these testimonies, not to undertake a discussion here concerning this subject, for His Imperial Majesty does not disapprove of this article, but in order that all who may read them may the more clearly perceive that we defend the doctrine received in the entire Church, that in the Lord's Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered with those things which are seen, bread and wine. And we speak of the presence of the living Christ [living body]; for we know that death hath no more dominion over Him, Rom. 6, 9.

This you may trust. Wikipedia, you may not trust.
 
Upvote 0

Robert_Barnes

Active Member
Mar 26, 2006
128
7
✟7,793.00
Faith
Lutheran
Selection from The Conservative Reformation and its Theology, by Charles Porterfield Krauth (1888), pp. 774-776.

N.B.:
when Krauth uses the word "Symbols" he is referring to the Lutheran Confessions (i.e., Book of Concord)
Salmasius (+1653): “Consubstantiation, or fusion of natures, is the commixtion of two substances as it were into one; but it is not this which the followers of Luther believe; for they maintain the co-existence of two substances distinct in two subjects. It is the co-existence, rather, of the two substances than their consubstantiation.” Nothing would be easier than to multiply such citations. . . .

The brethren of the Augsburg confession teach: That the body and blood of Christ are present with the signs in the Supper substantially and corporeally. But here it is to be observed that these brethren do not mean that there is any consubstantiation or impanation. On the contrary, Pfaff, the venerable Chancellor of Tubingen, protests, in their name, against such an idea. He says:
“All ours agree that the body of Christ is not in the Eucharist by act of that finite nature of its own, according to which it is now only in a certain ‘pou’ (somewhere) of the heavens; and this remains that the body of Christ is not in the world, nor in the Eucharist, by diffusion or extension, by expansion or location, by circumscription or natural mode. Yet is the body of Christ really present in the Holy Supper.

“But the inquisitive may ask, How? I answer, our theologians, who have rightly weighed the matter, say that the body and blood of Christ are present in the Holy Supper according to the omnipresence imparted to the flesh of Christ by virtue of the personal union, and are sacramentally united with the Eucharistic symbols, the bread and wine; that is, are so united, that of the divine institution, these symbols are not symbols and figures of an absent thing, but of a thing most present, to wit, the body and blood of Christ, which are not figurative, but most real and substantial.

Wherefore the body and blood of Christ are present, but not by a presence of their own a natural and cohesive, circumscriptive and local, diffusive and extensive presence, according to which other bodies are said to be present but by a divine presence, a presence through the conjunction of the Logos with the flesh of Christ. We, rejecting all other modes of a real Eucharistic presence, hold, in accordance with our Symbolical books, that union alone according to which the body and blood of Christ, by act of the divine person, in which they subsist, are present with the Eucharistic symbols. We repeat, therefore, all those of the Reformed do wrongly who attribute to us the doctrine of consubstantiation, against whom we solemnly protest.”

The adherents of the Augsburg Confession hold that the true and substantial body and blood of Christ . , are received by unbelievers as well as by believers, orally. Pfaff thus expresses it: “Though the participation be oral, yet the mode is spiritual; that is, is not natural, not corporeal, not carnal.”

Not only however have candid men of other Churches repudiated the false charge made against our Church, but there have not been wanting those, not of our Communion, who have given the most effectual denial of these charges by approaching very closely to the doctrine which has been maligned, or by accepting it unreservedly. Lehre and Wehre, II, 2, Feb. 1856, pp. 33-43

If the opponents of the Lutheran Church here in America want to be concise in describing the teaching of Luther, the Augsburg Confession, the Formula of Concord, and the entire old Lutheran church on the Lord’s Supper, especially as regards the manner in which the body and blood of Jesus Christ are present in this sacrament, they commonly resort to the use of the technical terms in our title, consubstantiation and impanation, or also incorporation.

This labeling is still used in the latest edition of the Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, 1854, edited by J. Newton Brown. Under the entry “Consubstantiation” we read the following: “A tenet of the Lutheran church respecting the presence of Christ in the Lord’s Supper. Luther denied that the elements were changed after consecration, and therefore taught that the bread and wine indeed remain; but that together with them, there is present the substance of the body of Christ, which is literally (!) received by communicants. As in red-hot iron it may be said, two distinct substances, iron and fire, are united, so is the body of Christ joined with the bread.”

Under the entry “Lutheranism” we are told that “It has undergone some alterations since the time of its founder. Luther believed the impanation or consubstantiation.”

It is indeed a pitiable and devastating testimony to the level of theological education in this country when a book claiming to represent that education contains such disfigurements (to say no more) of the teaching of a church that is spread across the entire globe. But it is even more unpardonable and presupposes either the greatest ignorance or evil intent when alleged theologians who call themselves Lutherans are just as incorrect in presenting the teaching of the church whose servants, stewards, and watchmen they want to be.

Alas, this is by no means an infrequent occurrence! The whole so-called “American Lutheran” church, led by such men as Dr. B. Kurtz and Dr. S. S. [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]er, dissociates itself, to be sure, from consubstantiation or impanation in the Lord’s Supper, yet, in spite of all protests on the part of Lutherans in this country who are faithful to the Symbols, keeps on boldly accusing these Lutherans and the whole old Lutheran Church that has remained loyal to Luther’s teaching of holding this unbiblical conception oft he presence oft he body and blood of Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Altar. This is so notorious that we may dispense with documentation from the Lutheran Observer or the Evangelical Lutheran.

To be sure, the warning has often been issued in recent years against reviving the old controversy about the Lord’s Supper. However, just those who issue this warning keep on attacking the teaching of the Lutheran Church on this point and not only call it a remnant of the papacy and a product of dark and superstitious days, but they also give that teaching a completely false interpretation and then make their renunciation of it a shibboleth of genuine American Lutherans. Who, then, is responsible for stirring up the old conflict? Those who remain faithful to the teaching of our church as deposited in its Symbols and defend it against attacks and distortions? Or is it not rather those who in the midst of our church oppose and misinterpret this teaching as unbiblical and papistic? Every fairminded person, even among our opponents, must concede that it is the latter.

For the moment, we will confine ourselves to rejecting the doctrine of a consubstantiation or an impanation that is imputed to Lutherans who are faithful to the Symbols.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jadis40

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2004
963
192
50
Indiana, USA
✟47,145.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Nope, actually paedobaptism (infant baptism) is the vast majority of Christians. Now I firmly believe that believer's baptism is what is taught in Scripture, however:

-Roman Catholics
-Eastern Orthodox
-Lutherans
-Anglicans/Episcopals
-Presbyterians and other Reformed groups

... all practice infant baptism. I'm not sure what the Methodists practice in regards to baptism. But your believer's baptism is basically baptist, anabaptist, non-denom and Bible churches, and charismatic churches.

Methodists practice infant baptism, but based on the individual, we would also baptize someone who was not baptized as an infant.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.