Reformed Anglicanism

[JM]

Let's wait until Monday. May we both feel refreshed after attending worship.

JM

 

[Albion]

Let's wait until Monday. May we both feel refreshed after attending worship.

JM

That's fine. I really did mean it when I said that if you don't choose to continue this, I'm happy enough for the discussion we've already had.

 

[Albion]

Researching Anglican parishes on-line, most of them seem to be high-church (Catholic) rather than low-church (Protestant). Why is the former more dominant?

That's hard to say. However, the Anglo-Catholic movement, also identified as the Tractarian or Oxford movement, started in the mid-1800s and has gradually gained strength. It should also be borne in mind that to be "High Church" is not the same as being Anglo-Catholic. The former term refers to style or ceremony and the latter to doctrine.

It's probably correct to say that most parishes and dioceses in the USA are somewhere between Anglo-Catholic and Evangelical, but also that most of them use rituals and ceremonies that naturally developed along with Anglo-Catholicism and, while these were considered to be quite controversial in the past, they're generally taken for granted these days. Examples would be certain vestments and adornments like altar candles and tabernacles.

It should probably also be noted that the church in some other countries very definitely would not be accurately classified as Anglo-Catholic.

 

[JM]

I forgot all about this thread. I’ve been using a tablet and find it difficult to respond from it and I end up forgetting to go back to older posts.

that a prescribed order of worship is somehow an imposition and doctrinally wrong.

It’s not orderly worship that is unbiblical but elements within the order that are and they become sinful if you bind them upon God’s people.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Albion]

It’s not orderly worship that is unbiblical but elements within the order that are and they become sinful if you bind them upon God’s people.

Well, that's not done...so that should settle this matter, right?

Good to hear from you again, JM.

 

[JM]

But it is!

One example...prescribed prayers for different seasons are directed to be read. For example, Lent has a set series of prayers yet, there is not biblical mandate for Lent or for Lenten prayers.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Albion]

But it is!

One example...prescribed prayers for different seasons are directed to be read. For example, Lent has a set series of prayers yet, there is not biblical mandate for Lent or for Lenten prayers.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

There is no Biblical mandate for half the things that are done in your church services, either. But no one in either of our churches is saying that if you want to have the sermon prior to the collection of tithes--or the latter before the former--that you are committing a sin in God's eyes!

THAT would be a valid issue, just as we say that it is wrong for the unreformed churches to impose manmade dogmas--DOGMAS--upon the people under pain of mortal sin and, therefore, the risk of losing their souls. No doctrine or dogma is involved in the recitation of Lenten prayers, not anymore than there is in the recitation of the prayers your church has constructed for the people to recite. I've attended Reformed and Presbyterian church services, and not once were the people extolled to start praying in unison, saying whatever words each individual in the congregation felt like uttering! (I did once experience that in a Southern Baptist Church, however.)

 

[JM]

There is no Biblical mandate for half the things that are done in your church services, either.

Explain.

But no one in either of our churches is saying that if you want to have the sermon prior to the collection of tithes--or the latter before the former--that you are committing a sin in God's eyes!

That dog don't hunt. That is an example of church order, not how to worship, which is what the BCP dictates. It tells you have to approach God.

No doctrine or dogma is involved in the recitation of Lenten prayers, not anymore than there is in the recitation of the prayers your church has constructed for the people to recite.

Ahhh, yes there is. Lent is a tradition and not a biblical doctrine, therefore, the recitation of prayers listed in the BCP is based on a human tradition.

I've attended Reformed and Presbyterian church services, and not once were the people extolled to start praying in unison, saying whatever words each individual in the congregation felt like uttering! (I did once experience that in a Southern Baptist Church, however.)

Can't speak to your personal experiences. My personal experience differs. I've been in Anglican churches where the minister tells the congregation to read Spong because "he's cutting edge!"

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Albion]

Explain.

Well, I did give you several examples later in that post. I could also add Sunday Schools, church bulletins, and stained glass windows. None of those is a Biblical mandate, and you could say that they are imposed on the people in the same way you were saying the order of service in an Anglican church supposedly is.

That dog don't hunt. That is an example of church order, not how to worship, which is what the BCP dictates. It tells you have to approach God.

It tells you to approach God. What an outrage. And there's nothing obligatory about it, which has already been mentioned at least twice.

Can this be taken seriously as a criticism, especially when your church and every other Reformed or Presbyterian church also has a set order of service?

Can't speak to your personal experiences. My personal experience differs. I've been in Anglican churches where the minister tells the congregation to read Spong because "he's cutting edge!"

Would you like me to cite a similar comment from a Reformed or Presbyterian minister somewhere and then follow it up with "That's the Reformed Church in America for you--how can you defend that?" Because I certainly can. In other words, you are proving nothing by this kind of attack and it's not even on topic as it has nothing to do with the Book of Common Prayer or what John Gill might have said...and it isn't even about something happening in my own church! Of course, it's not, and you know that.

 

[JM]

Well, I did give you several examples later in that post. I could also add Sunday Schools, church bulletins, and stained glass windows. None of those is a Biblical mandate, and you could say that they are imposed on the people in the same way you were saying the order of service in an Anglican church supposedly is.

Your so called examples are invalid and show a lack of understanding concerning how worship is conducted in church that claims the Regulative Principle. Sunday school is not worship. Church bulletins are not worship but given out before or after. No stained glass windows in the church I attend.

It tells you to approach God. What an outrage. And there's nothing obligatory about it, which has already been mentioned at least twice.

Exactly. In an unbiblical manner.

Can this be taken seriously as a criticism, especially when your church and every other Reformed or Presbyterian church also has a set order of service?

Strawman. Already addressed. Besides, you are making an equivocation. You can't defend your unbiblical worship by claiming, "oh ya!"

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Albion]

Your so called examples are invalid and show a lack of understanding

Exactly. In an unbiblical manner.



Strawman. Already addressed.

I can see by your inability to discuss the issues that you yourself raised that I was wrong to accept the invitation to come here to explain Anglicanism's view on these matters. I do hope that your fundamentalist mindset is not typical of all Reformed Christians. I don't think it is, but I no longer wish to volunteer to be your punching bag in any case, so bye-bye.

 

[moonbeam]

Having read through the entire thread…I was saddened to find that stained glass windows have caused so much division and become a point of contention.

I love stained glass windows…whether they be quite small examples, such as the often found small ventilation window above the toilet in older style homes…or panels in sections of the front doors of some homes…even those great old pieces of furniture where all the plates and tea pots are kept are often embellished with quite fine examples.

I have always had this little idea floating around in my head (this may hint at my mental instability but i'll risk exposing that here) about constructing a room, either round, or, hex/sep/oct sided and building a dome frame out of wood or tubing or even long pieces of bamboo, which would encapsulate the entire room and descend almost to floor level, kind of like the great vaulted ceilings you see in particular and varied structures in different parts of the world; And filling the entire dome with stained glass panels of different colours, designs and shapes, maybe some thin sliced agate and enamelling, combined with some wood carving embeleshments where the base of the dome merges with the wall, I thought round about chest or head height.

I thought that during daylight hours the light streaming in from the outside, whether the light of the sun, moon and stars, would push the colours into the interior...imagine being inside that space and having that awesome radiance with different intensities and hues streaming down to you from the heavens through the stained glass dome...And likewise at night...imagine approaching the structure from outside, maybe meandering through a little path through the trees following pieces of cookies like Hansell and Gretal...in that instance the colours would be pushed out, from the interior into the dark void of the starless night and that awesome radiance would pierce the gloom with an unavoidable attractivness; the light and colours would be pushed out via the medium of artificial light sources, or, maybe an open fire, even candles would surfice.

Anyways....I like stained glass windows...in churches...or anywhere else.

 

[Radagast]

imagine being inside that space and having that awesome radiance with different intensities and hues streaming down to you from the heavens through the stained glass dome

Sainte-Chapelle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Albion]

Having read through the entire thread…I was saddened to find that stained glass windows have caused so much division and become a point of contention.

It's probably not worth saying, but there hasn't been any "so much division and...contention" over stained glass windows. Thankfully.

They were mentioned only as a passing example of adiaphora. In both Reformed and Anglican churches, along with Catholic ones and others, there are many elements that are of human origin and not commanded by the Bible. -- and there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. Unfortunately, I was unable to make that point with the person I was debating and who wanted to say that in your churches there is nothing done or visible that is not commanded by the Bible whereas in ours there supposedly is an unscriptural and immoral oppression of the people through forcing them to be in the presence of such innovations as stained glass.

By the way, isn't that picture of Sainte-Chapelle just stunning!?

 

[gord44]

By the way, isn't that picture of Sainte-Chapelle just stunning!?

Absolutely beautiful.

 

[moonbeam]

It's probably not worth saying, but there hasn't been any "so much division and...contention" over stained glass windows. Thankfully.

They were mentioned only as a passing example of adiaphora. In both Reformed and Anglican churches, along with Catholic ones and others, there are many elements that are of human origin and not commanded by the Bible. -- and there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. Unfortunately, I was unable to make that point with the person I was debating and who wanted to say that in your churches there is nothing done or visible that is not commanded by the Bible whereas in ours there supposedly is an unscriptural and immoral oppression of the people through forcing them to be in the presence of such innovations as stained glass.

By the way, isn't that picture of Sainte-Chapelle just stunning!?

Well I have been to quite a few denominations over the years…but mostly, right from the beginning, I have always been a bit of a wonderer…I describe myself like this… I know I am a part of the body of Christ…as to what particular part…a foot perhaps a hand? …no…more like a loose strand of hair I suppose blowing in the wind…but I know I am connected to the Head

And so the stained glass windows…well really…And as for the Sainte-Chapelle well simply stunning..love it..I found an image of some stunning rainbow agate which I wanted to post but couldn't work out how to capture the image…but this picture of I have found will be a reasonable response to Chappelle Sainte

Hmn….will have to improve on my computer skills to recover image

 

[JM]

It's probably not worth saying, but there hasn't been any "so much division and...contention" over stained glass windows. Thankfully.

Albion is right. I would never claim "Anglicans are unbelievers" or anything crazy like that. We are having an inhouse discussion about how we approach worship. I've see Albion as a brother which is why I end out convo's with, "Yours in the Lord."

jm

 

[JM]

I can see by your inability to discuss the issues that you yourself raised that I was wrong to accept the invitation to come here to explain Anglicanism's view on these matters. I do hope that your fundamentalist mindset is not typical of all Reformed Christians. I don't think it is, but I no longer wish to volunteer to be your punching bag in any case, so bye-bye.

So far kneeing, prescribed prayers, prescribed seasons, consecration in the BCP as similar to Romanism, an unbiblical form of church government, etc. have all been given from reasons to reject the BCP. These are all elements intended to aid the Anglican in worship. If you are not able to defend the prescriptions given in the BCP it is you who suffers from the inability to continue discussion.



Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

Wow!

The Principles Of Theology: an introduction to the thirty-nine articles by W. H. Griffith Thomas. Amazing theological precision...what happened to the Reformed Anglicans? Thomas is spot on! He nails the Gospel and even experimental know of God.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Albion]

Hi, JM. Of course I am able. But you don't provide anything but accusations. No rationale. No evidence. No Scriptural substantiation. No actual familiarity with the Book of Common Prayer. No give and take, but just charges.

What am I left to do but say "You are wrong about that" when you don't even present a cogent argument but just make unsupported accusations? You give me no reasoning or explanation behind your approach to these matters.

That's why I've concluded that no discussion is going to be possible here.

Still I wish you a blessed Easter (if calling it Easter doesn't bring a charge that because I didn't say "Resurrection Sunday," we Anglicans must therefore not believe that Christ rose and that we instead worship the goddess Ishtar, that is. )

So far kneeing, prescribed prayers, prescribed seasons, consecration in the BCP as similar to Romanism, an unbiblical form of church government, etc. have all been given from reasons to reject the BCP. These are all elements intended to aid the Anglican in worship. If you are not able to defend the prescriptions given in the BCP it is you who suffers from the inability to continue discussion.



Yours in the Lord,

jm