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Reformed Anglicanism

JM

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If you know of any Reformed Anglicans who can explain the reasons for allowing Roman tradition into the BCP...I'm game. But to ignore what has been posted just wastes everyone's time, but thanks for trying.


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The Reformed Anglicans I've discussed theology with online disagree with Albion and tell me his views expressed in this thread have been influenced by the Oxford Movement and Anglo-Catholicism. Read the book by Thomas to see what I mean. He denounces what modern pop Anglicanism has become by explaining what Anglicans once confessed.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: us Reformed folk celebrate the resurrection once a week, the Lord's Day...
 
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Albion

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If you know of any Reformed Anglicans who can explain the reasons for allowing Roman tradition into the BCP
You apparently see everything that Christians did and believed from the time of Pentecost forward as wrong wrong wrong unless the Bible explicitly commands it. That would include ordinary prayers that are not quotations from Scripture, church buildings, Sunday Schools. All are dismissed as "Roman."

We believe, with St. Augustine and most of the great Protestant Reformers, but notably, NOT the Puritans, that what is not wrong or contrary to Scripture should not condemned just because (as the Seventh Day Adventists often argue on these forums) "the Roman Catholic Church does it that way, so if you do, it's because you are a captive to everything that is Roman Catholic." To me, this is ridiculous and would mean gutting most of what you do in your own church, too.

The Reformed Anglicans I've discussed theology with online disagree with Albion and tell me his views expressed in this thread have been influenced by the Oxford Movement and Anglo-Catholicism.
Apparently that's what I've been trying to explain. They are dead wrong, but of course, I have no way of knowing if you did actually speak to such people, whether they were indeed "Reformed Anglicans" (for which there really is no standard), and whether or not you misrepresented my views to them. I am about as far as possible from the Oxford Movement and Anglo-Catholicism as you're likely to run into.

But I came here because of an invitation to "Reformed Anglicans"-- and I am one. If I am now to be made, arbitrarily, into an opponent of all of that--and an Anglo-Catholic, for goodness sake!...I will exit, since the invitation was extended upon false pretenses.
 
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JM

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You keep reposting the same stuff different ways and claim you're leaving...only to come back...

For clarification; I'm not saying that Anglicans, ED or RC's are not believers. What I have been saying is that their worship is less than biblical.

jm
 
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Albion

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You keep reposting the same stuff different ways and claim you're leaving...only to come back...
That's because you won't respect my decision and keep repeating your own "same stuff," without answering my points but with some zinger thrown in to the effect that if I don't respond, it must mean that I am not able to deal with your charges.

That's not nice, so don't do that, please, and let's leave as friends.
 
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JM

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That's because you won't respect my decision and keep repeating your own "same stuff," without answering my points but with some zinger thrown in to the effect that if I don't respond, it must mean that I am not able to deal with your charges.

That's not nice, so don't do that, please, and let's leave as friends.

I posted a sermon from Gill. I pulled a few points from the sermon for you to deal with, perhaps offer an answer. You have failed to do so.
 
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JM

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Spurgeon asked, (the BCP) "set forth by learned divines and bishops, I would like a lucid explanation. The priest visits a sick man, sits down by his bed-side, reads certain prayers, bids the patient remember his baptism, questions him as to his creed, gives him good advice about forgiving his enemies and making his will, moves him to make a special confession of his sin if he feels his conscience troubled with any weighty matter, after which confession the Rubric says "the priest shall absolve him" (if he humbly and heartily desire it), after this sort. Here is the absolution, and I humbly and heartily desire a "Thus saith the Lord" for it: "Our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath left power to his church to absolve all sinners who truly repent and believe in him, of his great mercy forgive thee thine offences; and[bless and do not curse]by his authority committed to me, I absolve thee from all thy sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."[bless and do not curse]Sir Priest, I want you to give me a plain warrant from God's Word for your absolving my dying neighbor at this rate. Who are you that you should use such words? The season is solemn: it is the hour of death, and the matter is weighty, for it concerns the eternal interests of the dying man, and may—nay, will, if you be found to be acting presumptuously in this matter—involve your own soul in eternal ruin. Whence did you derive your right to forgive that sick man? Might he not raise his withered hands and return the compliment by absolving you? Are you quite sure as to the committal of divine authority to you? Then show me the deed of gift, and let it be clearly of divine origin. The apostles were empowered to do many things; but who are you? Do you claim to be their successors? Then work miracles similar to theirs; take up serpents, and drink deadly things without being harmed thereby; prove to us that you have seen the Lord, or even that cloven tongues of fire have sat upon each of you. You evangelical clergy, dare you claim to be successors of the apostles, and to have power to forgive sins? Your Puseyite brethren go the whole length of superstitious pretension; but you have too much light to be so superstitious; and yet you do what is quite as wicked,—you solemnly subscribe that this absolution is not contrary to the Word of God when you know it is? Gorham case, say you. I care nothing for your Gorham case: I want a "Thus saith the Lord" warranting you to swear to what you know to be false and dangerous. Mr. Mozley and Mr. Maskell may give you all the comfort which they can afford; but one word of Peter or of Paul would be of more weight in this matter than a thousand words from either of them.

You are aware, perhaps, that it is not every man who is permitted by the Established religion to pronounce this absolution. A person called a "deacon" is, I am informed, allowed to preach and do a great many things, but when he reads the Book of Common Prayer in the daily service he must not grant absolution; there is a supernatural something which the man has not yet received, for he has only once felt the episcopal imposition of hands. We shall see, by-and-by, where absolving power comes from. The deacon has attained to one grade of priestcraft, but the full vigor of mystic influence rests not upon him. Another touch, another subscription, and the keys of St. Peter will swing at his girdle; but his time is not yet. I ask him, whether he calls himself a deacon or a priest, where he gets a "Thus saith the Lord" for this absolution? which, if it be not of God, is a piece of impertinence, superstition, blasphemy, and falsehood."

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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CHS: [bless and do not curse]Turning a little further on, into a part of the Prayer-Book not much frequented by ordinary readers, we come to the "Ordering of Priests,"[bless and do not curse]or the way in which priests are made. Why priests? Is one believer more a priest than another, when all are styled a royal priesthood? Let that pass. Of course, brethren, the priests are made by the bishops, as the bishops are made by Lord Palmerston, or Lord Derby, or any other political leader who may be in office. The Prime Minister of England is the true fountain from whom all bishops flow, and the priests are minor emanations branching off from the mitre rather than the crown. Here is the way of ordering priests. Let heaven and earth hear this and be astonished: "When this prayer is done, the bishop with the priests present shall lay their hands severally upon the head of every one that receiveth the order of priesthood; the receivers humbly kneeling upon their knees, and the bishop saying, 'Receive the Holy Ghost.'" Listen to it, now! Think you behold the scene: a man of God, a bishop whom you have been in the habit of considering a most gracious, godly man, and such no doubt he may be, in a sort,—think you see him putting his hands upon the head of some evangelical man whom you will go and hear, or, if you like, upon some young rake fresh from Oxford,—and think you hear him say,[bless and do not curse]"Receive the Holy Ghost for the office and work of a priest in the church of God, now committed unto thee by the imposition of our hands. Whose sins thou dost forgive, they are forgiven, and whose sins thou dost retain, they are retained."[bless and do not curse]We want a "Thus saith the Lord" for that; for that is putting it rather strongly in the popish line, one would think. Is the way of ordering priests in the Church of Rome much worse than this? That the apostles did confer the Holy Ghost, we never thought of denying; but that Oxford, Exeter, or any other occupants of the bench can give the Holy Spirit, needs some proof other than their silk aprons or lawn sleeves can afford us. We ask, moreover, for one instance in which an apostle conferred upon any minister the power to forgive sins, and where it can be found in Scripture that any man other than an apostle ever received authority to absolve sinners. Sirs, let us say the truth; however much yonder priest may pretend at his parishioner's bedside to forgive sin, the man's sins are not forgiven; and the troubled conscience of the sinner often bears witness to the fact, as the day of judgment and the fearful hell of sinners must also bear witness. And what think you, sirs, must be the curse that fills the mouth of damned souls, when in another world they meet the priest who absolved them with this sham absolution! With what reproaches will such deceived ones meet the priest who sent them down to perdition with a lie in their right hands! Will they not say to him, "Thou didst forgive me all my sins by an authority committed unto thee, and yet here am I cast into the pit of hell?" Oh! if I do not clear my Soul upon this infamous business, and if the whole Christian church does not cleanse herself of it, what guilt will lay upon us! This is become a crying evil, and a sin that is not to be spoken of behind the door, nor to be handled in gentle language. I have been severe, it is said, and spoken harshly. I do not believe it possible to be too severe in this matter; but, sirs, if I have been so, let that be set down as my sin if you will; but is there any comparison between my fault and that of men who know this to be contrary to the Word of God, and yet give it their unfeigned assent and consent? or the sin of those who can lie unto the Holy Ghost, by pretending to confer Him who bloweth where he listeth upon men who as likely as not are as graceless as the very heathen? Fresh from the dissipations of college-life, the sinner bows before the man in lawn, and rises a full-blown priest, fully able to remit or retain sins. After this, how can the priests of the Church of England denounce the Roman Catholics? It is so very easy to fume and bluster against Puseyites and Papists; but the moment our charity begins at home, and we give our Evangelical brethren the same benefit which they confer upon the open Romanists, they are incensed beyond measure. Yet will we tell them to their faces, that they, despite their fair speeches, are as guilty as those whom they denounce; for there is as much Popery in this priest-making as in any passage in the mass-book. Protestant England! wilt thou long tolerate this blasphemy? Land of Wiclif, birthplace of the martyrs of Smithfield, is this long to be borne with? I am clear of this matter before the Most High, or hope to be, ere I sleep in the grave; and having once sounded the trumpet, it hall ring till my lips are dumb. Do you tell me it is no business of mine? Is it not theNational[bless and do not curse]Church?—does not its sin rest, therefore, upon every man and woman in the nation, Dissenter and Churchman, who does not shake himself from it by open disavowal? I am not meddling with anybody else's church; but the church that claims me as a parishioner would compel me, if it could, to pay its church rates, and that does take from me my share of tithe every year. I ask the sturdy Protestants of England, and especially the laity of the Church of England, whether they intend forever to foster such abominations? Arise, Britannia! nation of the free, and shake thy garments from the dust of this hoary superstition; and as for thee, O Church of England! may God bless thee with ministers who will sooner come forth to poverty and shame than pervert or assist in perverting the Word of God.
 
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JM

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JM

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Ok, I've chosen to use the BCP for the last few weeks, to give it a chance...and I guess I do like it. My puritan heart has a place for such prayers, "Almighty Father, who has given thine only Son to die for our sins, and to rise again for our justification; Grant us so to put away the leaven of malice and wickedness, that we may alway serve thee in pureness of living and truth; through the merits of the same thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."
 
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You apparently see everything that Christians did and believed from the time of Pentecost forward as wrong wrong wrong unless the Bible explicitly commands it. That would include ordinary prayers that are not quotations from Scripture, church buildings, Sunday Schools. All are dismissed as "Roman."

We believe, with St. Augustine and most of the great Protestant Reformers, but notably, NOT the Puritans, that what is not wrong or contrary to Scripture should not condemned just because (as the Seventh Day Adventists often argue on these forums) "the Roman Catholic Church does it that way, so if you do, it's because you are a captive to everything that is Roman Catholic." To me, this is ridiculous and would mean gutting most of what you do in your own church, too.

Apparently that's what I've been trying to explain. They are dead wrong, but of course, I have no way of knowing if you did actually speak to such people, whether they were indeed "Reformed Anglicans" (for which there really is no standard), and whether or not you misrepresented my views to them. I am about as far as possible from the Oxford Movement and Anglo-Catholicism as you're likely to run into.

But I came here because of an invitation to "Reformed Anglicans"-- and I am one. If I am now to be made, arbitrarily, into an opponent of all of that--and an Anglo-Catholic, for goodness sake!...I will exit, since the invitation was extended upon false pretenses.

I would be amazed to imagine you as an Anglo-Catholic. In all of the many, many posts of your that I have read I have never detected anything that resembles what I know to be Anglo-Catholicism and I would certainly consider you to be a Reformed Anglican.

The Regulative Principle of Worship has some positive aspects, as I am sure you know, but its application has all-too-frequently run aground, as you have pointed out above. The Normative Principle of Worship, which I believe you hold to, has its positive aspects, but when pushed to its extremes by churches such as the RCC, its problems become tragically evident.
 
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JM

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What changed your mind?

I picked it back up again but I do have a question...are their any Anglican preachers that preach solid doctrine like this?


Due to other obligations I will be attending the Anglican church tomorrow morning for the Book of Common Prayer service.

jm
 
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