References to Hell in OT

[genifer]

Hi guys. Im interested in learning about Hell in the OT. Ive noticed that Jesus and the NT mentions Hell a whole lot more then it is mentioned in the OT or Jewish scriptures. Id like to understand why a bit more fully, as well as discuss the references that are made to hell. Could you help me out. I found a couple of verses in OT that discuss eternal condemnation, the most striking and obvious one is in Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Another one is in Isaiah Is 33:14 14 The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?" Can you help me find anymore references to eternal condemnation in the Jewish scriptures. Thank you!

 

[genifer]

Ok? for some reason I cant make paragraphs! lol, also the quotes thingy wont work. So I hope you can understand what Im saying up there.

 

[St_Worm2]

Ok? for some reason I cant make paragraphs! lol, also the quotes thingy wont work. So I hope you can understand what Im saying up there.

Sure do, HTML tags have been appearing in EDIT and PREVIEW for a couple of days now. It's a little frustrating.

From Naves:

HELL. The word used in the King James Version of the O.T. to translate the Hebrew word sheol, signifying the unseen state, in Deut. 32:22; 2 Sam. 22:6; Job 11:8; 26:6; Psa. 9:17; 16:10; 18:5; 55:15; 86:13; 116:3; 139:8; Prov. 5:5; 7:27; 9:18; 15:11, 24; 23:14; 27:20; Isa. 5:14; 14:9, 15; 28:15, 18; 57:9; Ezek. 31:16, 17; 32:21, 27; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2; Hab. 2:5

The Future Abode of the Wicked: Psa. 9:17; Prov. 5:5; Prov. 9:13–17; Prov. 15:24; Prov. 23:13, 14; Isa. 30:33; Isa. 33:14

Realm, or State, of the Dead, usually expressed in Hebrew by Sheol and in Greek by Hades: 2 Sam. 22:6; Job 26:5; Psa. 6:5; Psa. 17:15; Psa. 30:9; Psa. 49:15; Psa. 86:13; Psa. 88:10–12; Psa. 115:17; Psa. 116:3; Prov. 15:24; Prov. 21:16; Prov. 27:20; Eccl. 9:4–6; Isa. 5:14; Jonah 2:2

 

[genifer]

Thank you ever so much for going to such trouble!

 

[St_Worm2]

Thank you ever so much for going to such trouble!

Hi Genifer, it was truly no trouble at all. It was just a copy/paste out of my Libronix Library's Nave's Topical Index. You don't even need Libronix, you can get it online too and all those references will be clickable to boot ..

Go here: http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/nave/index.htm

 

[steve4.truth]

Sheol is the Hebrew word and should not have been translated "hell" because it's just the common grave. Sheol is in the hebrew 65 times and refers to the grave. The translators used "hell" to give the idea that there is eternal torture, but that can't be supported by those verses.
Dan. 12:2 doesn't mention hell or torture--just shame. Some who are resurrected during the millennium will not respond to Jesus' rulership and will experience shame and even die prematurely (Isa. 65:20).
Isa. 33:14 uses fire in a figurative sense as seen in verse 11,12. just like stubble, grass, limes, and thorns are burned up, the wicked will be the same. Where do thorns and grass go when they are burned? nowhere. they're gone. What a good example of what happens to the dead--they cease to exist-- eccl. 9:5.
The best explanation of what happens to the wicked is when the first wicked human was sentenced by God's own mouth: Gen.3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
If eternal torment were true, wouldn't this be a good time for God to let the human family know? But He said "to dust you will return". RETURN means to go back to where you were before. where was Adam before he was created? nowhere! just dust. That's exactly where he RETURNED. The teaching of eternal torment is an old greek idea developed by Satan himself to make God look like an abusive Father. If i burn my children, I'll go to jail!

 

[genifer]

Thanks Steve4Truth. This is what I wanted to discuss actually. So, what is the NT talking about when they talk about Hell? Hades? I noticed in Revelation its talking about the lake of fire, death and hades are thrown there, and I believe unrepentant sinners.

Would you be willing to further discuss this? Do you believe a person has to accept Christ before he dies in order to gain eternal life? This is what Im interested in and what led me to ask about the scriptural references to hell in the OT. I want to understand better what hell is! I noticed in Genesis account of creation, there is no mention that God created a place called hell the way he created the heavens and the earth.

 

[steve4.truth]

I noticed that most of the NT doesn't mention eternal torment either--only about 15 references to fire in 2 places: the parables of Jesus and Revelations. The big debate is whether the talk about fire is literal or figurative of eternal destruction. To me, the fact that only 2 parts of the Bible talk about it and those are the 2 most figurative parts of the Bible leads me to conclude that it's a figurative way of saying that when wicked people die, they are completely dead--gone--just like grass that has been thrown in the fire. No resurrection. no eternal life. just dead--the opposite of life. Rom. 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in [fn] Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

[fm107]

Thanks Steve4Truth. This is what I wanted to discuss actually. So, what is the NT talking about when they talk about Hell? Hades? I noticed in Revelation its talking about the lake of fire, death and hades are thrown there, and I believe unrepentant sinners.

Would you be willing to further discuss this? Do you believe a person has to accept Christ before he dies in order to gain eternal life? This is what Im interested in and what led me to ask about the scriptural references to hell in the OT. I want to understand better what hell is! I noticed in Genesis account of creation, there is no mention that God created a place called hell the way he created the heavens and the earth.

A person must accept Christ in order to be saved there is quite simply no other way. There are ample of scriptures which state this clearly. Jesus himself said,

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Hell is a very real place indeed - make no mistake!...

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Steve, your understanding that people who do not believe in God become purley dead is totally wrong. I don't say this to critcize you in anyway but I say this with love and no ill intensions.

Here are just a very short list of scripture which shows that people do indeed become resurrected - both good and bad - no one will remain "purley dead."

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat [believers in Christ] into the barn and burning up the chaff [non-believers] with unquenchable fire."

Matthew 25:46
"Then they [non-believers] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous [believers in Christ] to eternal life."

Matthew 12:36
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

 

[steve4.truth]

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat [believers in Christ] into the barn and burning up the chaff [non-believers] with unquenchable fire."

What happens to chaff when it is thrown into fire? Does it burn forever?????

Matthew 25:46
"Then they [non-believers] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous [believers in Christ] to eternal life."

What is that eternal punishment? Jn. 3:16 "might not perish...." perish means to cease to exist. Eternal life means you live and keep living. eternal death means you die and stay dead.

Matthew 12:36
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

yes, When God judges us, every word we ever spoke--especially in regard to His Son will be taken into account.

 

[aero_sc]

A person must accept Christ in order to be saved there is quite simply no other way. There are ample of scriptures which state this clearly.

Where does your statement leave those individuals who were born, lived and died before Christ? Have they been consigned to hell already? I have tried to search and study to find a satisfactory answer to this, as this statement is extremely prevalent in my Baptist upbringing. Probably the most frequent response I have heard is that God has counted a persons faith to their righteousness which on the surface to me at least has always sounded like "another way". But when I try to be a little bit open minded and consider that God is Christ, Christ is God, Holy Spirit is God, etc. etc. then I seem to be able to put my mind around this concept and can then consider it a matter of which "title" is being used for God. Does that make any sense at all to anyone, lol?

 

[genifer]

Ok, I knew Christ was the only way. I wanted to know if there was scriptural evidence stating that one needs to accept Christ BEFORE death in order to recieve eternal life.

I think its becoming a little clearer about hell, what it is and what it isnt. A little clearer, not entirely.

Aero-sc. Its my understanding that it talks about it somewhere in one of the epistles to peter. There it talks about Jesus having gone to the departed souls and witnessed to them. I may be misunderstanding things there tho. And of coarse I cant find that piece of scripture right now.

 

[steve4.truth]

Ok, I knew Christ was the only way. I wanted to know if there was scriptural evidence stating that one needs to accept Christ BEFORE death in order to recieve eternal life.

I think its becoming a little clearer about hell, what it is and what it isnt. A little clearer, not entirely.

Aero-sc. Its my understanding that it talks about it somewhere in one of the epistles to peter. There it talks about Jesus having gone to the departed souls and witnessed to them. I may be misunderstanding things there tho. And of coarse I cant find that piece of scripture right now.

The short answer is yes. If we know about Jesus, we must accept him before we die to receive everlasting life.--Jn. 3:16 If because of laziness, lack of faith, or selfish cravings, we delay to put full faith in Jesus and repent of our sins, then we are not the type of people that Jesus wants in his new cleansed system. We will only contribute to defiling it and bringing things back to how they are now. We must be holy as He is holy.

But keep in mind that there are many who lived in the jungles of Africa or China and never heard of Jesus. There are many who were mentally disabled or who's personality was seriously altered by horrible events early in their life. These may have been able to look at creation (rom. 1) or show a good heart attitude, but they may have never had a chance to hear about Jesus. My Baptist upbringing told me that they would go to hell because they never accepted Christ. But that violates the hundreds of scriptures that say God is Love, longsuffering, patient, not willing that any should perish...... This is exactly why the kingdom of God was created--to restore things back to how he originally intended. That includes any people who had a good heart, but didn't have a chance.
Acts 24:15 "having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust." This can't include the wicked who reject Christ because they will "perish", be destroyed"--as if by fire---poof! Isa. 26:14 "They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And made all their memory to perish."
So who are the "unjust" in Acts 24:15?? It is people like the thief that died beside Jesus. He was unjust--a criminal. But because of his heart attitude, Jesus offered him another chance in his kingdom. Those who rule and reign as judges with Christ (Rev. 20:1-4) will gently teach these resurrected "unjust" to submit fully to Jesus' loving authority. Then comes the big test at the end of the 1000 yrs. Rev. 20:8 "and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth-Gog and Magog-to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore." Some of these "unjust" from the "nations in the four corners of the earth" will not have responded to the teaching, and will die in this test. Think carefully: why would God test again those people who were already faithful now? No, this test is for the "unjust" who were never tested in this life but need to be tested for loyalty after the 1000 years.
isa.9:6 describes Jesus in action in his future kingdom as a wonderful counselor, mighty God, eternal father, prince of peace. What does a counselor do? He helps people figure out the best way to live. What does a father do? he gives his children life and then provides for them everything they need to be happy. Jesus will fulfill those roles in the most complete way in that new heaven and new earth during the 1000 yrs.

 

[fm107]

What happens to chaff when it is thrown into fire? Does it burn forever?????

What is that eternal punishment? Jn. 3:16 "might not perish...." perish means to cease to exist. Eternal life means you live and keep living. eternal death means you die and stay dead.


yes, When God judges us, every word we ever spoke--especially in regard to His Son will be taken into account.

Matthew 25:46
"Then they [people who reject Christ] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Daniel 12:1-2
“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep [people who are dead] in the dust of the earth will awake [become living]: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 20:11-15
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing [you need to be alive to stand]before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Once a person dies they will either go to Paradise or Hades. When the day of judgement comes, each person will have to stand before the Lord Jesus - the king of kings and be judged. When judgement is passed, that person will either go to hell for eternity or to heaven for eternity. No one remains dead for those who are asleep awake!

 

[Christos Anesti]

"Then they [people who reject Christ] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The word translated "eternal" here is aionion.
It doesn't necessarily imply "everlasting" and is in fact often used in such a way that translating it "everlasting" or "eternal" wouldn't make much sense at all. Take Romans 16:25 for example:

"Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, that was kept secret for long ages" (ESV).

Here aionion is translated as "long ages" because obviously it couldn't have been kept secret everlastingly seeing as how we have now been let in on this mystery.

The great Saint and Theologian Gregory of Nyssa also did not understand the word to mean "everlasting". St Gregory had a firm grasp on both the Greek language and the Bible. Take for instance what he said here :

"Whoever considers the divine power will plainly perceive that it is able at length to restore by means of the aionion purging and atoning sufferings, those who have gone even to this extremity of wickedness." St Gregory of Nyssa

 

[fm107]

Eternal or everlasting is what is meant here.

To prove that it does necessarily apply, I will show you other scriptures to back this up:

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Revilation 14:9-11
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

I hope there is now no ambiguity as to whether it is eternal or not.

 

[ittarter]

Eternal or everlasting is what is meant here.

To prove that it does necessarily apply, I will show you other scriptures to back this up...

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Revilation 14:9-11
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

I hope there is now no ambiguity as to whether it is eternal or not.

If you are able to read the Greek, you will find out that all of these verses rest on the same assumption as your earlier verses.

Gk. aionion is the word in question. Does it refer to a time without end? Older translators typically thought so, and rendered the word accordingly: "everlasting." Modern translators, commentators and linguistics are more skeptical, and typically render the word as "eternal." The two English terms are actually quite different.

To demonstrate that aionion does not ALWAYS mean "everlasting," here are two passages, one from John, one from Paul:

John 17:3 "This is aionion life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

Rom. 16:25 "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for aionion ages..."

The verse from John uses aionion to describe a kind of life that is qualitatively different from the life belonging to this age. John presents Jesus as the one who has come from heaven to bring the true knowledge of God to those who will believe. It has nothing to do with the future -- it is entirely concerned with present experience, an experience that is unlike any experience from our time or world.

The verse in Romans uses aionion to describe time prior to Jesus' earthly ministry. Unless you posit an endless time period stretching backwards, during which "the mystery" was kept secret, it is clear that aionion isn't being used to denote time of unending duration. Rather, the time during which the mystery was kept secret was during an entirely different age, namely, before the breaking-in of God's kingdom, before the beginning of resurrection, before the divine presence with all the church through the Holy Spirit, etc.

In sum, no verse using the word aionion can operate as a "proof-text" of the traditional doctrine of hell (the everlasting torment of the damned) without substantial contextual support. There are some texts in Matthew's gospel and Revelation that may qualify, given such exegetical work, but simply throwing verses around isn't going to go anywhere.

I know this is a sensitive issue and I hope that I have not offended or irritated you in any way.

 

[ittarter]

Hi guys. Im interested in learning about Hell in the OT. Ive noticed that Jesus and the NT mentions Hell a whole lot more then it is mentioned in the OT or Jewish scriptures. Id like to understand why a bit more fully, as well as discuss the references that are made to hell. Could you help me out. I found a couple of verses in OT that discuss eternal condemnation, the most striking and obvious one is in Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Another one is in Isaiah Is 33:14 14 The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?" Can you help me find anymore references to eternal condemnation in the Jewish scriptures. Thank you!

The Hebrews/Israelites/Jews didn't really have a definable belief in the afterlife until Persian philosophies started to infiltrate and affect their culture. At least, none that we can see from the present Hebrew Bible.

Thus, Isaiah 33 doesn't refer to hell, but Daniel 12 does. Well, not exactly. Daniel 12 envisions the coming resurrection, wherein some will be raised in glory and vindication, while others to shame from their "previous" life. It doesn't even mention physical suffering, does it? Just shame. Not exactly the "hell" of the New Testament, much less contemporary Christianity.

 

[fm107]

The Hebrews/Israelites/Jews didn't really have a definable belief in the afterlife until Persian philosophies started to infiltrate and affect their culture. At least, none that we can see from the present Hebrew Bible.

Thus, Isaiah 33 doesn't refer to hell, but Daniel 12 does. Well, not exactly. Daniel 12 envisions the coming resurrection, wherein some will be raised in glory and vindication, while others to shame from their "previous" life. It doesn't even mention physical suffering, does it? Just shame. Not exactly the "hell" of the New Testament, much less contemporary Christianity.

The new testament talks about torment as well as agony. One is physical and the other is not.

Luke 16:19-31
19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[ittarter]

The new testament talks about torment as well as agony. One is physical and the other is not.

Luke 16:19-31...

I agree entirely with your synopsis. My point was that this depiction is in sharp contrast with the thought represented in the Hebrew Bible.