References to God in anthems and national symbols.

[Quid est Veritas?]

I was watching Rugby the other day and my favourite part of any sporting event is when the National Anthems are played.

Up comes New Zealand and after the melodious Maori we hear "God defend New Zealand!"
Australia and Canada share the UK's 'God save the Queen' as the royal anthem as well.
The US has 'In God We Trust', and the pledge of Allegiance says 'under God'.
Crosses appear on the British flag, Scandanivian ones, Greece, etc.

So I was wondering, how do Atheists feel about this overt religious content? How do others feel about the State in this way co-opting religion to Patriotism?

I used to be an Atheist, but I love historical hangovers, so I in fact liked this back then. Now, as a Christian, I am more conflicted. For while we are to render unto Caesar, we are to give to God what is His. This may be an attempt at Jingoism in His name or alternately, a valid expression of faith. Do Atheists wish to have all such symbols scrapped?

 

[Zoii]

I was watching Rugby the other day and my favourite part of any sporting event is when the National Anthems are played.

Up comes New Zealand and after the melodious Maori we hear "God defend New Zealand!"
Australia and Canada share the UK's 'God save the Queen' as the royal anthem as well.
The US has 'In God We Trust', and the pledge of Allegiance says 'under God'.
Crosses appear on the British flag, Scandanivian ones, Greece, etc.

So I was wondering, how do Atheists feel about this overt religious content? How do others feel about the State in this way co-opting religion to Patriotism?

I used to be an Atheist, but I love historical hangovers, so I in fact liked this back then. Now, as a Christian, I am more conflicted. For while we are to render unto Caesar, we are to give to God what is His. This may be an attempt at Jingoism in His name or alternately, a valid expression of faith. Do Atheists wish to have all such symbols scrapped?

Australia's national anthem is NOT God Save the Queen; its Advance Australia Fair

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Australia's national anthem is NOT God Save the Queen; its Advance Australia Fair

God save the Queen is Australia's Royal Anthem. Like Canada, they have a National and a Royal Anthem.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I don't say 'under god' -- not that I've been in a situation to say the pledge for a long time.

I think both it and 'in god we trust' are unconstitutional, but the Supreme Court has described such things as examples of ceremonial deism:

"Ceremonial deism is a legal term used in the United States for nominally religious statements and practices deemed to be merely ritual and non-religious through long customary usage."

The Supreme Court is the final arbiter of these things, so I must just be content to know that these words are meaningless ritual formulas.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I don't say 'under god' -- not that I've been in a situation to say the pledge for a long time.

I think both it and 'in god we trust' are unconstitutional, but the Supreme Court has described such things as examples of ceremonial deism:

"Ceremonial deism is a legal term used in the United States for nominally religious statements and practices deemed to be merely ritual and non-religious through long customary usage."

The Supreme Court is the final arbiter of these things, so I must just be content to know that these words are meaningless ritual formulas.

How decidedly odd. No deist would "trust" in God after all.

 

[FireDragon76]

"In God We Trust" was not put on our money until the 50's, likewise the Pledge of Allegiance's "under God" is a 20th century addition.

Some of our patriotic songs have generic theistic religious references. "Battle Hymn of the Republic" is explicitly Christian. Our navy's official song is actually a hymn ("Eternal Father, Strong to Save").

How decidedly odd. No deist would "trust" in God after all.

Historically, deism was not so monolithic or unified. At the time the US Constitution was written, it was assumed that belief in some kind of God, vaguely Calvinist ("Providence") was the default belief for all human beings, and was therefore not religious in the sense of being sectarian, favoring a particular religion. It was not necessarily a rejection of traditional theism, merely a de-emphasis on certain attributes of God.

 

[Chesterton]

The Supreme Court is the final arbiter of these things,...

Our finest purveyors of Orwellian comedy. A statement which is nothing but religious and cannot possibly be taken any other way is deemed "non-religious", based on the subtle but enforceable logic of "because I said so". And the people who swear in our Leader, who take oaths themselves and don black, serious bathrobes refer to ritual, the only important thing man does on Earth, as "mere" ritual. It's only ritual that gives them the authority to denigrate ritual.

 

[Zoii]

Australia's national anthem is NOT God Save the Queen; its Advance Australia Fair

Apparently we only use it in the presence of the queen, who fortunately stays where she is in England. So the only anthem you will hear here is Advanced Australia Fair.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Apparently we only use it in the presence of the queen, who fortunately stays where she is in England. So the only anthem you will hear here is Advanced Australia Fair.

This is a myth. It is used on dates of importance to the Crown such as anniversaries, as well as in ceremonial in which the Governor General takes part. It is similar in this way to how Canada uses it.

Nocookies

Row in Australia after 'God Save the Queen' is dumped from Anzac services

That is really not the point though. The question is on overt religious symbolism in the service of Nationalism, either from a religious or non-religious perspective. There is a Union Jack on the Australian flag's canton, which has an explicit Cross (3 in fact, St. George, St. Andrew, and St. Patrick's crosses). Likewise crosses appear on Australia's coat of arms. So even without the Royal Anthem, there is still a lot of it around.

 

[bhsmte]

I was watching Rugby the other day and my favourite part of any sporting event is when the National Anthems are played.

Up comes New Zealand and after the melodious Maori we hear "God defend New Zealand!"
Australia and Canada share the UK's 'God save the Queen' as the royal anthem as well.
The US has 'In God We Trust', and the pledge of Allegiance says 'under God'.
Crosses appear on the British flag, Scandanivian ones, Greece, etc.

So I was wondering, how do Atheists feel about this overt religious content? How do others feel about the State in this way co-opting religion to Patriotism?

I used to be an Atheist, but I love historical hangovers, so I in fact liked this back then. Now, as a Christian, I am more conflicted. For while we are to render unto Caesar, we are to give to God what is His. This may be an attempt at Jingoism in His name or alternately, a valid expression of faith. Do Atheists wish to have all such symbols scrapped?

Doesnt bother me in the least.

 

[jayem]

Non-sectarian ceremonial religiosity isn't a problem for me. As long as no one is expected to participate, and no one suffers consequences for respectfully refusing to participate.

But government institutions (like public schools) that display prayers, or Bible verses are asking for trouble. Anything that specifically invokes the Abrahamic god could be problematic. Because if any citizen in the area is a Muslim, or Buddhist, or Hindu, he could ask for a similar display relevant to his religious tradition. And I suspect he'd have a good case. He could argue that a reference only to the Judeo-Christian god shows government preference for one religious faith over another. Which would be a big problem for me. Not to mention, it would violate my state constitution, and maybe the US Constitution.

 

[Zoii]

This is a myth. It is used on dates of importance to the Crown such as anniversaries, as well as in ceremonial in which the Governor General takes part. It is similar in this way to how Canada uses it.

Nocookies

Row in Australia after 'God Save the Queen' is dumped from Anzac services

That is really not the point though. The question is on overt religious symbolism in the service of Nationalism, either from a religious or non-religious perspective. There is a Union Jack on the Australian flag's canton, which has an explicit Cross (3 in fact, St. George, St. Andrew, and St. Patrick's crosses). Likewise crosses appear on Australia's coat of arms. So even without the Royal Anthem, there is still a lot of it around.

True about the union jack on our flag. A lot want to change that and NZ is doing exactly tgat.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

True about the union jack on our flag. A lot want to change that and NZ is doing exactly tgat.

They already had the referendums in New Zealand. It failed. They voted to retain their current flag.

 

[Zoii]

They already had the referendums in New Zealand. It failed. They voted to retain their current flag.

wow I should have googled that...wow Im so surprised.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

wow I should have googled that...wow Im so surprised.

I was as well. I felt sure they would opt for a Silver Fern pattern, choosing a plant like Canada. I am happy that they retained their defaced Blue Ensign though.

If Australia tried to change their flag, I think it would fail too. Not because people like their current one, but because monarchists and republicans would be split on what to change it to. Few monarchists would support the Eureka stockade flag, I would think.

 

[Zoii]

I was as well. I felt sure they would opt for a Silver Fern pattern, choosing a plant like Canada. I am happy that they retained their defaced Blue Ensign though.

If Australia tried to change their flag, I think it would fail too. Not because people like their current one, but because monarchists and republicans would be split on what to change it to. Few monarchists would support the Eureka stockade flag, I would think.

I always thought a flag should be self evident of who you are. So many flags I cant work out who it belongs to - but others stand out like Japan, USA, GB, SA & Ireland

Our coat of arms or aboriginal flag stands out...seeing a kangaroo on anything makes it pretty clear where its from

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I always thought a flag should be self evident of who you are. So many flags I cant work out who it belongs to - but others stand out like Japan, USA, GB, SA & Ireland

Those aren't self evident, just well known. Nothing about stars and red and white stripes specifically says USA except for a known association. Japan as Land of the Rising Sun, perhaps. They are therefore no different from other flags, just better known and therefore more closely associated with their countries.

What do you mean by SA though? Saudi Arabia? Certainly a sword and Arabic letters are a good combo for an Arab country following a severe form of Islam. Or South Africa? Ours is just a green Y. Nothing really specially ours there. Or South Australia? Googling it, it is a blue Ensign with a bird.

Our coat of arms or aboriginal flag stands out...seeing a kangaroo on anything makes it pretty clear where its from

Agreed. Maybe Australia should just put a Kangaroo on their flag?

Some Coat of Arms supporters are weird though. Scotland has Unicorns, which is why it is present on the Royal arms of the UK as a supporter, but it isn't as if Scotland is awash with unicorns. This is a survival of the house of Stuart using that symbol though.