Reexamination of prayer and will

[bhsmte]

The intuition is easy. There should be no distinguishing anyway as we are only working with non-addicts. Can you not use your imagination to think of an excessive non-addicted user?

We reached a deadend.

 

[Neochristian]

If this is too difficult you are wasting my time.

 

[bhsmte]

If this is too difficult you are wasting my time.

No, you said it was easy.

Carry on, i am done with comments in this thread.

 

[Neochristian]

Yes, it's very easy. Some of us have difficulty. I don't know why.

 

[Locutus]

Obsessive party goers who get drunk on weekends, does fit the description Locutus explained.

The 'nightly wine with dinner' otherwise tidy married mother of two doesn't think she's an alcoholic, and the 22 year old student who only drinks on weekends doesn't think he's an alcoholic. Both choose to believe that an alcoholic is someone with a red nose and high blood pressure, who's downed a quart of whiskey by lunch time. Both are wrong.

 

[Locutus]

Perhaps a better example would be shopping or video games.

Shopping is a really good one. It's possibly the cleverest of dark tricks, because it allows the addict to believe it's harmless. Society doesn't frown upon it either, and if there's one thing the shopping addicted worships as much as the mall, it's society's opinion of them.

Shopping is grotesque. There is no other word for it. Every ill you see outside your window (and in the mirror) can be traced back to our infantile and spastic consumption.

 

[Locutus]

I figured it would be quite easy to identify them. The point of this requires only intuition. Each of us has an intuition about someone who uses excessively but is not addicted. It's simple. Elsewhere he moved on from the topic of alcoholism to wealth or shopping or video games. Maybe that's easier.

My bold. That's your error.

Go to your nearest large shopping mall. Determine who is there to buy cheap groceries from Aldi (do you have Aldi stores in the US?), and those who are there purely to obtain a particular specialist item. Send them home. Now you can see who is there just to 'get a fix'. Not so easy.

 

[Neochristian]

There is a difference between alcohol addicts and alcohol abusers. We are discussing alcohol abusers.

 

[Neochristian]

OK if you're focusing on addiction you're completely missing the point.

 

[Locutus]

There is a difference between alcohol addicts and alcohol abusers. We are discussing alcohol abusers.

Yes, but the two habits can and do coexist. The important point here is that the idea that infrequent consumption exempts one from alcoholism is incorrect. In fact, despite my earlier comments, someone who only drinks once a week can be an alcoholic, while the person who has a glass of wine with dinner every night might not be. Addiction is tricky that way.

That's the point of this continued focus. That very often there IS addiction involved, despite the individual imaging that it's want-based choice. This applies to alcohol, shopping, gaming, whatever.

 

[Neochristian]

The fact that they can coexist is irrelevant. All this is irrelevant.

 

[Locutus]

The fact that they can coexist is irrelevant. All this is irrelevant.

It may be irrelevant to the topic of pure idolatry, but it's related. We generally won't give up 'gods' we have a compulsion for. It can be viewed as some sort of moral or spiritual failure, or can be recognised as an addiction.

 

[Neochristian]

Fair enough. I'll give you that. But it is secondary.

It's better end things (first discussion) than begin them (second discussion).

Remember that verse?

 

[quatona]

If idols are prayed to and worshiped, and alcohol is an idol, then we must reexamine what prayer and worship are, because nobody looks to them in a way that we would normally call prayer and worship. So what are they?

Just think: the bible often uses hyperbolic language.

 

[FireDragon76]

People are overthinking a metaphor.