Redemption of Satan??

[All4Christ]

And - don't consider me as the ultimate authority on Orthodox doctrine - I'm still learning it all...

 

[AureateDawn]

Awww. This is one of the things that drew me to Orthodoxy. Bah.

 

[All4Christ]

Justin - forgive me for writing all that. Don't consider me to be the source of information about Orthodoxy. I have no doubt that some of my previous Protestant beliefs are mixed in there - as I still don't know everything regarding the Orthodox position on this...Otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place Look for replies from others in regard to your question. Though - I have to say - God is mercy in and of itself....so....consider the entire concept of God's mercy before writing it off because of this one issue...

 

[Matrona]

If I understand correctly - the Church knows where the Church is - but doesn't know where the the Church is not....but - ultimately - I believe that Satan and the fallen angels have already made their choice. They have ultimately made their choice to remain apart from God's love.

But that's just it, there's an issue here as to how you can be apart from an omnipresent being. Or how you can separate God's presence from God's love.

The point of this theologoumenon, I think, is to prostrate one's own intellect before the ultimate authority of God - to admit that the depth of God's mercy and love is beyond our comprehension, and that if we cannot bring ourselves to judge the ultimate ability of Satan to find his salvation, we certainly cannot judge our brothers and sisters to be damned with certainty either.

And - don't consider me as the ultimate authority on Orthodox doctrine - I'm still learning it all...

I realize that the whole point of my post is not judging, but your modesty is worthy of praise in my book.

 

[All4Christ]

I realize that the whole point of my post is not judging, but your modesty is worthy of praise in my book.

Thank you I need to remind myself that - because sometimes (if something doesn't ring true with me) I'll start to write responses - and then realize that I'm half pulling info from what I've learned - and half from what I previously believed (if I haven't heard yet exactly what the Orthodox beliefs are)! So...if I remember - I try to wait to see what others say...because I unfortunately don't know enough yet. One thing about Orthodoxy - I don't think I'll ever stop learning...and I love that...

 

[paleodoxy]

Matrona is not Orthodox on this, either - just FYI

 

[jckstraw72]

it would not be loving for God to redeem Satan bc the only way to do that would be to force Satan into redemption, and that would make God a tyrant.

 

[Breaking Babylon]

He who humbles himself will be exalted, and whoever shall exalt himself will be abased. Satan is the king of pride, I don't see how he could be exalted into divinity. I personally don't believe in his redemption and I never will.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

How is it possible that Satan could be redeemed, and yet the rest of humanity that rejected God couldn't? Only through universalism, which definitely is heretical.

QED, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[nutroll]

Forgive me if I have misunderstood this, but isn't universalism the belief that all will be saved, rather than the belief that all could be saved?

 

[Kvikklunsj]

Hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism#Christianity

 

[-Kyriaki-]

Yup, that's what universalism is. The belief that all WILL.

I think the basic idea is that
a) God can do anything

and

b) it gives opportunity that all *can* be saved.

I don't think Metropolitan Kallistos is saying that he will, or that God will 'save' Satan, I think it's more that he's saying it's there, possibility for repentance.

He's not likely to, but we have to give opportunity, don't we?
Can we not let this thread get into another 'Metropolitan Kallistos/Timothy Ware is a heretic' thread?

And if we're going to talk about him, PLEASE people be respectful when talking about him. He's hardly been excommunicated yet, so he's worthy of our respect, especially to those of us who are catechumens and have no real authority to be making declarations or criticism of those in authority above us.

 

[jckstraw72]

its stupid to even say it though. its like, philisophically its a possibility that Satan will repent, but Divine revelation rules that out. Christ spoke of eternal punishment, and Revelation shows Satan being cast into the lake of fire and all that shizzle.

 

[Friul]

St. Martin of Tours stated something like "If thou, thyself, wretched being, wouldst but desist from attacking mankind, and even, at this period, when the day of judgment is at hand, wouldst only repent of your deeds, I, with a true confidence in the Lord, would promise you the mercy of Christ" when confronted by Satan. Obviously, it is not doctrine since he said it, but just another example of it being addressed.

 

[paleodoxy]

There is no difference between saying Satan "will" be saved and saying he "could" be saved in the grander theological scheme of things. Matrona (and somebody else) tried to suggest a while back that there was a difference, and it was pointed out that the 5th Ecumenical Council condemned this notion on the basis that Hell and the General Resurrection ushers all of us (righteous and unrighteous alike) into the fullness of eternity, where everyone is confirmed in their wickedness and righteousness forever.

To argue that salvation remains possible (even in hell, or for Satan) is to deny the finality of the Judgment and General Resurrection, and makes God subject to time, and thus bound to His own creation. It would also mean that, not only could those in hell still be saved, but those in heaven could lose their salvation. If the unrighteous are never confirmed in their sin, then the righteous cannot be confirmed in their righteousness.

Sin (and creation) would be co-eternal with God, and matter would be seen as a result of sin (gnosticism).

 

[jckstraw72]

if Satan would repent God would gladly take Him back, but we know that he never will repent. It doesnt seem to me that St. Martin is even suggesting that Satan could be saved.

 

[paleodoxy]

Also, I think it was Lossky who pointed out that fallen angels cannot be saved because they are spirit-beings (eternal realm); whereas humanity was capable of being saved after the fall because we are temporal realm creatures with both a material body and a soul (non-material element). Christ could take on our humanity and raise us up again. The demons were not created with a nature that would enable them to have a second chance.

 

[buzuxi02]

Universalism has already been condemned as heresy by the 5th Ecumenical council .If Bishop Ware is openly teaching this then he is teaching a heresy.

The concept of the restoriation of satan and the impious was anathemized in the 5th council under Justinian's anathemas #7 & 9.

Here is a list of the Justinian Anathemas of the 5th council scroll to #7 &9.

NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[buzuxi02]

Also, I think it was Lossky who pointed out that fallen angels cannot be saved because they are spirit-beings (eternal realm); whereas humanity was capable of being saved after the fall because we are temporal realm creatures with both a material body and a soul (non-material element). Christ could take on our humanity and raise us up again. The demons were not created with a nature that would enable them to have a second chance.

I agree, and this is what anathema 7 of Justinians condemnation of Origen in the 5th ecumenical council implys.

 

[ma2000]

To the OP, there are 3 stories I know about it.

1) From the Minaeion for January (you might find it in the Prologues too), there is a story when a devil came in a human form to Saint Anthony the Great asking him to ask God if he can be saved. The answer from God was affirmative, if the devil will repent for three years.
2) There is another story (I don't know the source of this) of a nun who made a devil say he is sorry and the devil became an angel.
3) Elder Paisios was praying for the salvation of the devils.

I don't have time to translate them now, but if you want to, I can try some other time.