Redemption of Satan??

[All4Christ]

Regarding the "Evil, Suffering, and the Fall of Man" in "The Orthodox Way" by Bishop Kallistos Ware...I was just reading this...and, well...honestly it didn't, well...seem quite right. Though if the Orthodox Church believes this...I would very much like to know the reasoning - as I realize there are many things that I have seen in a completely different light, due to my Protestant background...

...But, while we are rightly suspicious of any facile resolution of the 'problem of evil', we can find in the account of man's fall, given in the third chapter of Genesis - whether this be interpreted literally or symbolically - two vital signposts, to be read with care.

First, the Genesis account begins speaking of the 'serpent' (3:1), that is to say, the devil - the first among those angels who turned away from God to the hell of self-will. There has been a double fall: first of the angels, and then of man. For Orthodoxy the fall of the angels is not a picturesque fairytale but spiritual truth....Prior to man's creation, there had already occurred a parting of the ways within the noetic realm: some of the angels remained steadfast in obedience to God, others rejected him. Concerning this 'war in heaven' (Rev. 12:7) we have only cryptic references in Scripture; we are not told in detail what happened, still less do we know what plans God has for a possible reconciliation within the noetic realm, or how (if at all) the devil may eventually be redeemed. Perhaps, as the first chapter of the Book of Job suggests, Satan is not as black as he is usually painted. For us, at this present stage in our early existence, Satan is the enemy; but Satan has also a direct relationship with God, of which we knwo nothing at all and about which it is not wise for us to speculate."

What is this about? Does the Orthodox Church believe that is possible for Satan and the fallen angels, as he puts it, to be reconciled with God??

And for the record - i wish HTML was supported - at least for bolding, breaks, stylizing, etc.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I've been under the impression that this is Ware's own musings and not in any way a stance the Church as a whole takes. I certainly have major problems with it.

 

[All4Christ]

good....because...that would be hard to accept if that was church dogma - or even doctrine...I would try to understand / get to know the reasoning...but...personally, i do have issues with it.

 

[paleodoxy]

All4Christ,

I've been criticizing Ware for a while here on that - and a couple other matters as well. I wish Orthodox churches would STOP using this book for catechumens...it only confuses and befuddles and scares them away.

But rest assured...his view is definitely NOT an acceptable or generally supported teaching in Orthodoxy.

 

[Shubunkin]

That puzzled me too, when I read it. But if you notice it's taking no presumptions at all with God's will. If it be in God's will he will do anything he wants, and save any or all he wants, even though it be the old serpent himself.

Still, it's highly unlikely, it seems to me.

 

[paleodoxy]

Lossky would give Ware a good lashing for his foolish speculations. If you want an Orthodox demonology, read Lossky. He's a serious theologian.

 

[Shubunkin]

I understand the Jews believe Satan is not condemned by God, but actually does God's bidding. I found that hard to accept.

 

[AureateDawn]

That is one of the awesome things that drew me to Orthodoxy; I read this early in my search

To know that God is so forgiving and so loving that Satan himself may even be redeemed in the end... That's something. That's love. That's... amazing.

 

[Kvikklunsj]

All4Christ,

I've been criticizing Ware for a while here on that - and a couple other matters as well. I wish Orthodox churches would STOP using this book for catechumens...it only confuses and befuddles and scares them away.

But rest assured...his view is definitely NOT an acceptable or generally supported teaching in Orthodoxy.

I agree. Haven't read it yet, but I managed to find the old (supposedly better?) version at my library.
Why he would go around espousing such beliefs is beyond me...

 

[paleodoxy]

Well, for one, no one can come out of hell after going there...and Satan is thrown into hell in Rev.20. Origen was condemned for suggesting otherwise (along with his doctrine of the pre-existence of souls).

 

[All4Christ]

I agree. Haven't read it yet, but I managed to find the old (supposedly better?) version at my library.
Why he would go around espousing such beliefs is beyond me...

This is the 1979 version...I think it's the old one :-/

 

[All4Christ]

All4Christ,

I've been criticizing Ware for a while here on that - and a couple other matters as well. I wish Orthodox churches would STOP using this book for catechumens...it only confuses and befuddles and scares them away.

But rest assured...his view is definitely NOT an acceptable or generally supported teaching in Orthodoxy.

I admit - I've been reading this on my own...I want to learn more - so much more - and I have difficulty waiting until my catechism class gets to that point...

 

[All4Christ]

Lossky would give Ware a good lashing for his foolish speculations. If you want an Orthodox demonology, read Lossky. He's a serious theologian.

Just got his books waiting for them to arrive in the mail!! Honestly - this was the one book I could find in the library so I decided to take it up and start reading it...

And I apologize - I should have put all these posts into one thread but I took the lazy way out and did quick replies to each of them

 

[paleodoxy]

My priest told us that we would be using Ware's new edition of The Orthodox Church. I had to inform him (he didn't know!) that Ware doesn't see the filioque as an important issue anymore. The churches really need to carefully examine what they use before handing it out to new converts. There's no excuse for being ignorant about the content of the books you're using to educate people during the formative time of their spiritual growth in the Church. Not a good way to start.

 

[All4Christ]

Yes - I suppose I should talk to Father Tim more about the books that I am reading on my own...he has suggested several to me which I have eagerly read - and very much enjoyed. But...I honestly read too much and end up trying to find things on my own as well...hence - this book..

Though - this was recommended to me by other converts...so I assumed it would be a good choice...

 

[paleodoxy]

I don't know...you seem to have a pretty sound and discerning mind, so I wouldn't be too concerned about you - but there are many theologically ignorant people out there who could potentially be hindered from joining the Church - or, what's worse, deceived - due to one bad apple.

 

[All4Christ]

Very true...I've seen this happen other times as well.

By the way - any time that you come upon a book that you think would be good to read to learn more about Orthodoxy, etc - even if it is a book that you would recommend waiting until later to read - please let me know!

 

[AureateDawn]

Oh. So... this isn't a general consensus of the Church?

 

[Matrona]

Oh. So... this isn't a general consensus of the Church?

It's a theologoumenon (acceptable teaching that does not contradict dogma) to say that it's possible for Satan to be redeemed in the end. In all cases, though, it's considered unlikely that he will be, and to use it to support universalism is heretical.

 

[All4Christ]

If I understand correctly - the Church knows where the Church is - but doesn't know where the the Church is not....but - ultimately - I believe that Satan and the fallen angels have already made their choice. They have ultimately made their choice to remain apart from God's love. Think of this...Satan (and correct me if I'm wrong) was one of the most important angels in heaven....I forget exactly what the ranking was...but he deliberately became that which was not his own. Satan deliberately went against God - to the ultimate degree. If there was such a thing as redemption of Satan - which I definitely do not believe - I would think that the degree of his betrayal of God would indicate that he is beyond the point of asking for redemption in the first place.

Satan not having the opportunity to be reconciled with God is COMPLETELY different than God not being a merciful God, etc. You know - God didn't have to give us free will in the first place. The very fact that we can choose whether or not we choose God is an act of love and mercy - beyond compare. God could have easily chosen to make us worship him. Did he though? No - he gave us a free will - in which we can choose to either follow him - or reject the act of love and mercy that Jesus did when he came to earth...

Sorry if this doesn't make sense....I'll reread this after I post to double check it