Red shift quantization & an orderly universe

[busterdog]

You know you disappoint me Busterdog. I know you love the Lord and you have a good heart, and yet you step in after the torrent of abuse, insult and evasion, and accuse us of rhetoric.

Really? When I started here, Helen Setterfield was told her husband was a fraud (not by you). So much for her love for the Lord and that of her husbands.

The war has hardly abated since.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
The Schools, Universities and government are my rightful ground as a believer in the inerrant Word. I am not the only one with that right, but I am nobody's boy. But there is nothing with saying we aren't giving any more ground to unbelief on such matters. If others find that is insulting, frankly, that is not my problem. I own it. It is provocation and I knew where it was headed. But, I am not the only one who takes the discussion in that direction. Lets see who will fess up.


PROSPERO

These three have robb'd me; and this demi-devil--
For he's a bast*&d one--had plotted with them
To take my life. Two of these fellows you
Must know and own; this thing of darkness!
Acknowledge mine.

* * *

Pointing to Caliban

PROSPERO
He is as disproportion'd in his manners
As in his shape. Go, sirrah, to my cell;
Take with you your companions; as you look
To have my pardon, trim it handsomely.

CALIBAN
Ay, that I will; and I'll be wise hereafter
And seek for grace. What a thrice-double ass
Was I, to take this drunkard for a god
And worship this dull fool!

"Did she slap you? Then you said it right" -- Eddie Murphy as Mr. Rogers.

 

[Assyrian]

Really? When I started here, Helen Setterfield was told her husband was a fraud (not by you). So much for her love for the Lord and that of her husbands.

The war has hardly abated since.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
The Schools, Universities and government are my rightful ground as a believer in the inerrant Word. I am not the only one with that right, but I am nobody's boy. But there is nothing with saying we aren't giving any more ground to unbelief on such matters. If others find that is insulting, frankly, that is not my problem. I own it. It is provocation and I knew where it was headed. But, I am not the only one who takes the discussion in that direction. Lets see who will fess up.

Ah right, you weren't joining in the present discussions where we have been treated to accusation after accusation of dishonesty, heresy, not believing Moses or Jesus or the word of God, while any discussion and exegesis of what Moses, Jesus or the word of God actually said in the passages claimed to disprove TE are met with evasion, ignored or simply given a repetition of the claim that we disbelieve the word of God. Instead of actually caring which side relied on rhetoric and who is using exegesis, you see Helen Setterfield as an excuse to support the most boorish behaviour as long as they are creationists? It doesn't matter if you think Helen Setterfield is an excuse, or if you think you are supporting upholding the word of God, what matter is whether you think it is an honest portrayal of the discussion we have been having here to accuse us of being the ones rhetoric instead of exegesis.

Personally what took me from sitting on the fence about YEC and back to searching scripture was an anti evolution preacher claiming the church had to 'repent of the idolatry of evolution', it was ugly, it was using condemnation and fear to to manipulate the church and was trying to fight against evolution by bringing Christians into the bondage of fear. To me it spoke of Pharisaical spirit not the spirit of Christ. Nevertheless, when I discuss evolution or TE with Creationists I don't assume they are all the same. I don't assume their hearts are filled with bitter hatred and condemnation of TEs. Even when they have been taught how evil and dangerous evolution is and repeat the same old condemnations I have heard again and again, I assume they have the grace of Christ in their heart and his Spirit has transformed their lives with the love of God. I always assume the grace of God and our fellowship in Christ is much stronger than the bitter distortions they have been taught in the name of Creationism. Unless they go to of their way to convince me otherwise. Occasionally you come across those whose heart are so filled with bitterness and arrogance they cannot see beyond their condemnations. It is ugly and wearing to face such a barrage of abuse, but am I offended by their accusations? Sorry I am much to secure in the Lord's love for me to take personal offence. No the reason I joined in the whole debate was that I hated to see such bullying tactics bringing the church into bondage with judgementalism and condemnation that is so far from the grace of God, such bitterness should not be preached in the name of Christ.

You don't like how Helen Setterfield was treated, I don't like the ugliness of how some Creationists behave. It may be one of our reasons for debating creationism, but it is not an excuse for dishonesty or misrepresentation.

 

[Papias]

maybe getting more on topic.......

Busterdog wrote:

Science can find or pretend to find order anywhere. I dont know that one model as more order than the other. What they most rail against is the ability of God to say what the order is ahead of their ability to define it. They mostly wish to define an orderly cosmology that marginalizes God.

Who is this "they", you refer to? Poll after poll shows that the majority of those who support evolution in the United States are Christians. Further, depending on how one describes God, belief in God among scientists is often most scientists. Is this some circling UFO conspiracy idea about a secret "they" who are plotting to define an orderly cosmology that marginalizes God? Wha......?

Looking over this thread, so much of it seems to be people discussing things they have little grasp of - even more so than the biology and geology threads, where many of us are biologist or geologists, or at least can make cogent points about the evidence. I'll be the first one to admit that I'm no expert in astrophysics - so maybe discussions on more widely understood or more widely accessible topics are more likely to be useful?

Papias

 

[busterdog]

Ah right, you weren't joining in the present discussions where we have been treated to accusation after accusation of dishonesty, heresy, not believing Moses or Jesus or the word of God, while any discussion and exegesis of what Moses, Jesus or the word of God actually said in the passages claimed to disprove TE are met with evasion, ignored or simply given a repetition of the claim that we disbelieve the word of God. Instead of actually caring which side relied on rhetoric and who is using exegesis, you see Helen Setterfield as an excuse to support the most boorish behaviour as long as they are creationists? It doesn't matter if you think Helen Setterfield is an excuse, or if you think you are supporting upholding the word of God, what matter is whether you think it is an honest portrayal of the discussion we have been having here to accuse us of being the ones rhetoric instead of exegesis.

Personally what took me from sitting on the fence about YEC and back to searching scripture was an anti evolution preacher claiming the church had to 'repent of the idolatry of evolution', it was ugly, it was using condemnation and fear to to manipulate the church and was trying to fight against evolution by bringing Christians into the bondage of fear. To me it spoke of Pharisaical spirit not the spirit of Christ. Nevertheless, when I discuss evolution or TE with Creationists I don't assume they are all the same. I don't assume their hearts are filled with bitter hatred and condemnation of TEs. Even when they have been taught how evil and dangerous evolution is and repeat the same old condemnations I have heard again and again, I assume they have the grace of Christ in their heart and his Spirit has transformed their lives with the love of God. I always assume the grace of God and our fellowship in Christ is much stronger than the bitter distortions they have been taught in the name of Creationism. Unless they go to of their way to convince me otherwise. Occasionally you come across those whose heart are so filled with bitterness and arrogance they cannot see beyond their condemnations. It is ugly and wearing to face such a barrage of abuse, but am I offended by their accusations? Sorry I am much to secure in the Lord's love for me to take personal offence. No the reason I joined in the whole debate was that I hated to see such bullying tactics bringing the church into bondage with judgementalism and condemnation that is so far from the grace of God, such bitterness should not be preached in the name of Christ.

You don't like how Helen Setterfield was treated, I don't like the ugliness of how some Creationists behave. It may be one of our reasons for debating creationism, but it is not an excuse for dishonesty or misrepresentation.

I guess this why wars are fought. This one seems to be worth fighting now and again.

The really nice thing about this is that the gloves come off. Because the cutesy, we-are-all-talking-civilly-here is a sham. This thread is what it is really about. Thus, the Kingdom of Heaven suffering violence, and so forth.

Let it get ugly, because that it is what TE "diaglogue" with young earth has always been, with regrettably brief interruptions.

Mark Kennedy gets pretty tough on TE as a philosophy. He has principally led the assault. The TEs of course gave as good as they got, attitude wise. It is hard to argue with Mark's approach anymore. If nothing else, maybe the mods just close this silly forum down because it gets so brutal.

SInce all you see is the most aggressive YEC posture and there is nothing good in it, then fine. Hammer and tongs is just fine. Had I expected an apology for Helen SEtterfield or anything else, I wouldnt presume to turn the tables over here.

 

[busterdog]

maybe getting more on topic.......

Busterdog wrote:



Who is this "they", you refer to? Poll after poll shows that the majority of those who support evolution in the United States are Christians. Further, depending on how one describes God, belief in God among scientists is often most scientists. Is this some circling UFO conspiracy idea about a secret "they" who are plotting to define an orderly cosmology that marginalizes God? Wha......?

Looking over this thread, so much of it seems to be people discussing things they have little grasp of - even more so than the biology and geology threads, where many of us are biologist or geologists, or at least can make cogent points about the evidence. I'll be the first one to admit that I'm no expert in astrophysics - so maybe discussions on more widely understood or more widely accessible topics are more likely to be useful?

Papias

You are they. I don;t care what you call yourself. Plainly, understanding written English is not your thing, unless someone you like writes it down, so whatever. Apparently no one can even agree with you in part unless they have the correct TE pedigree.

 

[Assyrian]

I guess this why wars are fought. This one seems to be worth fighting now and again.

The really nice thing about this is that the gloves come off. Because the cutesy, we-are-all-talking-civilly-here is a sham. This thread is what it is really about. Thus, the Kingdom of Heaven suffering violence, and so forth.

Except it isn't about talking civilly, it is about talking honestly and with integrity. That is what I expect from fellow Christians and I am saddened when what I get is distortion and dishonesty. It does not bring glory to the Lord, no matter how you tell yourself you are fighting for his name.

Let it get ugly, because that it is what TE "diaglogue" with young earth has always been, with regrettably brief interruptions.

Mark Kennedy gets pretty tough on TE as a philosophy. He has principally led the assault. The TEs of course gave as good as they got, attitude wise. It is hard to argue with Mark's approach anymore. If nothing else, maybe the mods just close this silly forum down because it gets so brutal.

If you are looking for dialogue, creationists should try talking us instead of name calling and rhetoric. At least Mark will talk about his claims and try to defend them. The recent discussions here have been much worse.

SInce all you see is the most aggressive YEC posture and there is nothing good in it, then fine. Hammer and tongs is just fine. H

ad I expected an apology for Helen SEtterfield or anything else, I wouldnt presume to turn the tables over here.

Interesting argument. Never mind that what has actually been going on in OT is what you delicately put as 'the most aggressive YEC posture'. No, portray me as only able to see the worst in YEC and use that as an excuse for your own behaviour. In fact I have been having a number of enjoyable conversations with YECs in other parts of the forum. They love the Lord and they love his word and I really enjoy discussing the bible with them. But there is a really ugly side to YEC that comes from professional YEC preachers and websites and tries to win the arguement through condemnation and fear. I only call creationists on this when they start accusing TE of sin and unbelief for accepting evolution. Am I wrong to challenge them on unbiblical judgementalism? If I do so, is it an excuse for you justify any tactics you want to use?

 

[busterdog]

Except it isn't about talking civilly, it is about talking honestly and with integrity. That is what I expect from fellow Christians and I am saddened when what I get is distortion and dishonesty. It does not bring glory to the Lord, no matter how you tell yourself you are fighting for his name.

If you are looking for dialogue, creationists should try talking us instead of name calling and rhetoric. At least Mark will talk about his claims and try to defend them. The recent discussions here have been much worse.

Interesting argument. Never mind that what has actually been going on in OT is what you delicately put as 'the most aggressive YEC posture'. No, portray me as only able to see the worst in YEC and use that as an excuse for your own behaviour. In fact I have been having a number of enjoyable conversations with YECs in other parts of the forum. They love the Lord and they love his word and I really enjoy discussing the bible with them. But there is a really ugly side to YEC that comes from professional YEC preachers and websites and tries to win the arguement through condemnation and fear. I only call creationists on this when they start accusing TE of sin and unbelief for accepting evolution. Am I wrong to challenge them on unbiblical judgementalism? If I do so, is it an excuse for you justify any tactics you want to use?

This is actually very biblical judgmentalism. The content is bad. As much as you would like it to be about people's salvation or something similar, it isnt. It is about repeated offenses. Smarmy, disrespectful, condescending posts, all of which is whitewashed with incredulity.


GO check out creationism where your TE friends can't help themselves. You all have no restraint and no ability to police your own ranks. TEs break the rules constantly and the best you can ever say is that creationists deserve the nasty, demeaning, rule-breaking troll-like responses.

The really funny thing is that some of the worst offenders are professional academics. The whole enterprises is so class-less and grace-less, it is just astounding.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Let's show respect in our debate.