Red Foxes Talking Circle

[wolfman544]

Just a brief "Halloween" note here.

I don't really consider myself "FaithfulWife, part German" or "FaithfulWife, part Choctaw." In my head I consider myself "FaithfulWife, mellow hippie chick mom of seven and wife of dear hubby." I don't know that I am ANY race or nationality to be those things.

And I don't look at others and think, "Huh, must be part European there" or "Hmmm...part Hispanic". I look at others and think, "Huh, my neighbor" or "Hmmm...the lady at church" or "Oh, it's that guy from the library." For example, today I'm "that pretty lady with the butterfly mask"

Excellent point
that is how it should be

 

[GigageiTsula]

November is American Indian Heritage Month.

Please visit the following sites or Google American Indian Heritage Month to learn more.

American Indian Heritage Month

History of American Indian Heritage Month

The Creation of American Indian Heritage Month

 

[wolfman544]

November is American Indian Heritage Month.

Please visit the following sites or Google American Indian Heritage Month to learn more.

American Indian Heritage Month

History of American Indian Heritage Month

The Creation of American Indian Heritage Month

Awesome,
We have a Native American program at the library this month

 

[GigageiTsula]

That is great to hear.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Topic to discuss:

Should an American NDN follower of Jesus keep the white man's traditions of Thanksgiving and Christmas?

I have been researching both of these holidays for some time now, and it has caused confliction and confusion in my spirit. I have discussed this conflict with my husband but now I would like to ask you, my friends, these questions.

Does anyone know the history of Thanksgiving as seen through the eyes of a Red Man?

Does it bother anyone that the traditions of Christmas have pagan and secular origins?

I grew up keeping these holidays because it was what my adopted family did and I never once questioned. For the majority of my marriage and in the raising of my children, I never questioned. But since I have been walking closer spiritually to the Great Spirit on this faith path , I am questioning.

I have researched and examined Wakan Takan's holy book for answers, but I see no scripture that commands the followers of Jesus to observe and celebrate his birthday. And I cannot find evidence before 300 B.C. that the first followers of Jesus observed his birth. I have researched the origins of Christmas tradition on Google, but I am not confident that such information is credible.

I have found that discussing this with some other followers of Jesus causes strife and frustration. Please believe me when I say that this is NOT my intent. I have been accused of attacking Christmas, which I am not. I have been accused of not being a 'true' follower of Jesus or of being 'anti-Christian' because I question this Christian tradition. I do not understand in my heart or spirit its sacredness or why I am chastised for asking.

Which brings me to my next problem. As a child, I was told that Santa Claus was real. I believed my mother and father when they told me this. I was deeply hurt and angered that my own mother and father would be dishonest with me. And as a parent, I vowed never to do this with my own children. I know of many Christian parents who are dishonest with their children in this regard. But I know of no NDN Christian parents who do this. Why is it not the same?

I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone. Please remember that I mean not to offend. I am learning more and trying to understand more as I walk this new path with G-d. I do not want to continue denying or ignoring my deep concerns and questions. I do not want to continue to follow others simply because it is what is done or is acceptable in their eyes. I want my life to reflect Jesus and the glory of Wakan Takan.

Red Fox

 

[FaithfulWife]

Halito Redfox and Okla Homma,

I am just at lunch break now but wanted to share with you my particular feelings and thoughts on your topic. It's my understanding that in the New Testament there are not specific "holidays" that we are commanded to remember, except to celebrate the Lord's Supper together with our brothers and sisters in Christ. The two big "christian" holidays of Easter and Christmas are not commanded anywhere that I am aware of, and the closest thing I see as a requirement of a believer is that it is good for us to gather together with others of like mind to support each other in our Christian walk.

Thus, personally I think that if nothing is commanded, then all the rest is a TRADITION that we have the freedom to chose, to reject, or to modify. I think we have an obligation to modify the traditions in a way that honors God, but other than that, according to the apostle Paul we have freedom.

The basis, or fake story told, about the Thanksgiving holiday is, in summary, offensive to me. But the root and spirit of the holiday is not--and that is to gather together with family, friends, and people I love, and give thanks to God for His many blessings. Thus, I do gather with my friends and family and have a feast on that day. Everyone is invited--literally--and if you come, you bring something to share. Then we sit around the house--in the living room or at the table--and we talk for hours about the blessings we've received that year, thanking God and sharing with each other usually via songs or poems--and lots of laughs.

Christmas, likewise, is an odd holiday for me. The pagan roots of the holiday are not attractive to me (then again, Easter is also rooted in a pagan holiday)--but if I look at the MEANING of the holiday to me, I do still choose to celebrate it--because for me Christmas is the time of year to GIVE. I send out hundreds of cards every year to contact friends and family around the world. I make lists and lists and think of others. I make gifts so that love is an ingredient in the things I give. And I have to admit, I enjoy the songs! I do not go the "Santa" route, nor did I when my kids were little. I did tell the "who is that guy in the red suit" and tell them the legend--but even as little children they acted as if, "Oh mom, that is just ridiculous! "

So there's my two cents. Respectfully,

~~FaithfulWife

 

[wolfman544]

Topic to discuss:

Should an American NDN follower of Jesus keep the white man's traditions of Thanksgiving and Christmas?

I have been researching both of these holidays for some time now, and it has caused confliction and confusion in my spirit. I have discussed this conflict with my husband but now I would like to ask you, my friends, these questions.

Does anyone know the history of Thanksgiving as seen through the eyes of a Red Man?

Does it bother anyone that the traditions of Christmas have pagan and secular origins?

I grew up keeping these holidays because it was what my adopted family did and I never once questioned. For the majority of my marriage and in the raising of my children, I never questioned. But since I have been walking closer spiritually to the Great Spirit on this faith path , I am questioning.

I have researched and examined Wakan Takan's holy book for answers, but I see no scripture that commands the followers of Jesus to observe and celebrate his birthday. And I cannot find evidence before 300 B.C. that the first followers of Jesus observed his birth. I have researched the origins of Christmas tradition on Google, but I am not confident that such information is credible.

I have found that discussing this with some other followers of Jesus causes strife and frustration. Please believe me when I say that this is NOT my intent. I have been accused of attacking Christmas, which I am not. I have been accused of not being a 'true' follower of Jesus or of being 'anti-Christian' because I question this Christian tradition. I do not understand in my heart or spirit its sacredness or why I am chastised for asking.

Which brings me to my next problem. As a child, I was told that Santa Claus was real. I believed my mother and father when they told me this. I was deeply hurt and angered that my own mother and father would be dishonest with me. And as a parent, I vowed never to do this with my own children. I know of many Christian parents who are dishonest with their children in this regard. But I know of no NDN Christian parents who do this. Why is it not the same?

I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone. Please remember that I mean not to offend. I am learning more and trying to understand more as I walk this new path with G-d. I do not want to continue denying or ignoring my deep concerns and questions. I do not want to continue to follow others simply because it is what is done or is acceptable in their eyes. I want my life to reflect Jesus and the glory of Wakan Takan.

Red Fox

No offense has been taken. You might be hard pressed to truly offend me

You raise some good questions.
I don't really know that much about the origins of the holidays.
I'm not happy with the secularization and commercialization of Christmas. But, I still choose to celebrate His birth, and on that note it should be Christmas everyday for us. Because He was born, died and rose again for each and every one of us.

 

[wolfman544]

Halito Redfox and Okla Homma,

I am just at lunch break now but wanted to share with you my particular feelings and thoughts on your topic. It's my understanding that in the New Testament there are not specific "holidays" that we are commanded to remember, except to celebrate the Lord's Supper together with our brothers and sisters in Christ. The two big "christian" holidays of Easter and Christmas are not commanded anywhere that I am aware of, and the closest thing I see as a requirement of a believer is that it is good for us to gather together with others of like mind to support each other in our Christian walk.

Thus, personally I think that if nothing is commanded, then all the rest is a TRADITION that we have the freedom to chose, to reject, or to modify. I think we have an obligation to modify the traditions in a way that honors God, but other than that, according to the apostle Paul we have freedom.

The basis, or fake story told, about the Thanksgiving holiday is, in summary, offensive to me. But the root and spirit of the holiday is not--and that is to gather together with family, friends, and people I love, and give thanks to God for His many blessings. Thus, I do gather with my friends and family and have a feast on that day. Everyone is invited--literally--and if you come, you bring something to share. Then we sit around the house--in the living room or at the table--and we talk for hours about the blessings we've received that year, thanking God and sharing with each other usually via songs or poems--and lots of laughs.

Christmas, likewise, is an odd holiday for me. The pagan roots of the holiday are not attractive to me (then again, Easter is also rooted in a pagan holiday)--but if I look at the MEANING of the holiday to me, I do still choose to celebrate it--because for me Christmas is the time of year to GIVE. I send out hundreds of cards every year to contact friends and family around the world. I make lists and lists and think of others. I make gifts so that love is an ingredient in the things I give. And I have to admit, I enjoy the songs! I do not go the "Santa" route, nor did I when my kids were little. I did tell the "who is that guy in the red suit" and tell them the legend--but even as little children they acted as if, "Oh mom, that is just ridiculous! "

So there's my two cents. Respectfully,

~~FaithfulWife

I would have to agree with you there
good 2 cents

 

[cristianna]

I think everyone is offering some very valid points. I truthfully have never researched the origins of either holidays. I'm quite intrigued I must say.

 

[GigageiTsula]

I want to thank those who have responded. Faithfulwife, I truly appreciate your honesty and understanding. Thanksgiving is now offensive to me, since I have seen it through the eyes of an NDN, as is Columbus Day. I no longer consider either holiday worthy of celebrating when I think of the genocide that occured after the arrival of the white man.

If you want to see this 'holiday' of Thanksgiving through the eyes of an NDN, I will provide you with what I have read. What you do after that is your choice. I am sick to my stomach when I think about gathering with my family who will give thanks for their freedom in this country and the 'blessings' that G-d gave them from this land - the land that was stolen from my Ancestors and the NDN blood shed to take it. I am just torn in my heart and my spirit is broken. I am sad, confused and restless in my sleep. My dreams are haunted by what I know of the past.

My husband has graciously listened to me explain my objections of Christmas and Easter, because both are originated from paganism and secularism. He has agreed to omit the pagan and secular parts of both of these days. I have yet to fully discuss the true Thanksgiving history with him. He has already given up much and has faced ridicule from his family for our decision. I am sure when Christmas arrives, we will hear more criticism. I am not sure how I can ask him to reconsider Thanksgiving, too. He will if I ask him, but how can I? And if I decide not to ask him then how can I live with myself knowing this 'holiday's' true history, the white man's lies about it, and the genocide that was birthed from it? Will I willingly betray and dishonor the sacrifices of my Ancestors and the millions of American NDNs that died at the hand of the white man's invasion? Did I say invasion? I guess I should have said the coming of the white man. Maybe I was correct the first time. I simply do not know what to do, and my heart is grieved with sadness.

What I read in these articles made my stomach turn. Please read them with a sincere heart and a prayerful spirit. Be prepared to mourn, too.

The Thanksgiving Myth

Another article entitled: The Thanksgiving Myth, written by John Two-Hawks, an NDN activist (and a wonderful NDN flute player, I might add).

National Day of Mourning on Thanksgiving

Native Americans Will Mourn Thanksgiving

I cannot bring myself to type the title of this next article, please just click this LINK.

I have only included articles that I have personally examined. If you want to learn more I suppose you could google why American NDNs object to Thanksgiving. On the issue of Christmas, I am not sure what to say about it or the celebration of it. I googled its origins and that is how I learned about its pagan and secular roots. I am fascinated though to realize that I was so unaware of its origins and more amazed that this is not (or at least I have never heard it) discussed openly by the Christian Church.

I am more than aware that I am going against the current - the norm of our society, and of our Christian faith. I encounter more hostility than I do kindness when I try to discuss this with other followers of Jesus. Those who oppose and object to my objection behave as if I am attacking the Lord Jesus himself and the entire religion of Christianity. I simply cannot understand how one follower of Jesus could purposely try to harm or embarrass another follower of Jesus. I wish someone could help me better understand this.

Red Fox

 

[cristianna]

Red Fox followers who embarrass or harm, I really don't think they understand what they are saying and doing. I'm sorry you've had those experiences.

You are so blessed to have a husband who listens and cares about your feelings and emotions! I saw one reader commented about fasting that day. And truthfully I think that is awesome.

Is there any kind of compromise you would be willing to do?

 

[GigageiTsula]

I am not sure, Cristianna. I am sickened by this. Please pray for me.

 

[cristianna]

I'll pray.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Good afternoon my friends! I hope this has been a blessed weekend for each of you. Please pray for me while I am on MySpace. I have already made a couple of connections with 2 unsaved NDNs, and the NDN Ministry, Broken Walls. Please remember me. ~ Red Fox

​

 

[cristianna]

I'll be praying for you Red Fox.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Thank you my friend.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Good Morning my brothers and sisters in Jesus, my friends. I pray you have a blessed week and day today. Walk in peace and in light.

Red Fox

​

 

[GigageiTsula]

(this is a re-post)

O'siyo (hello) my friends. I write to you from Oklahoma, in the Land of the Red Man. My children and I are staying with my husband's parents for a few days. And since this is American NDN Heritage Month, I could think of no better place to honor it besides in our own home then in the Land of the Red Man. Tomorrow we will visit an NDN Musuem near the Capitol. I will continue to teach my children the history and paths of our Ancestors and our Relations' Ancestors, the Ancient Ones. Wednesday I will take my children to Anadarko, which is known as Indian City. There are many different NDN Nations represented there. And then on Thursday, I will take them to the Cherokee Reservation near Tahlequah, the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. And if time permits, I will try to take them to the Choctaw Nation near Durant. But I do not know if I will be able to do that on this trip. We are so excited, and I am anxious to go. I think I am more anxious then my children. I was not planning to come here until next week, but my children persuaded me to (pleaded I think is more like it), and so we are here. Oklahoma is my home, it is where my family is, it is where my People are. I love to come here and I am sad when I have to leave to go back home to Texas. I will be online some while I am here, but probably not as often as I was when I was at home. Please keep me and my children in your prayers, and please pray for my husband, Three Hawks, while he is far away from us. I also ask for you to pray when I go to these places with my children. I see this time as a gift given to me by Wakan Takan. I asked him to give me opportunities to share my faith with other NDNs. I cannot wait, but I am somewhat apprehensive. Please remember me. I want to say that although none of us has ever met in person, but I feel spiritually connected to each of you through our Father Wakan Takan, the Great One. He has blessed me here and I want to show my gratitude to him and to you, my friends.

Red Fox

 

[FaithfulWife]

Halito Okla Homma!

I heard a song last night by John Denver that made me think of you and this thread so I'll share it with you.

Windsong


The wind is the whisper of our mother the earth. The wind is the hand of our father the sky.
The wind watches over our struggles and pleasures. The wind is the goddess who first learned to fly.

The wind is the bearer of bad and good tidings, the weaver of darkness, the bringer of dawn.
The wind gives the rain, then builds us a rainbow, the wind is the singer who sang the first song.

The wind is a twister of anger and warming, the wind brings the fragrance of freshly mown hay.
The wind is a racer, a wild stallion running and the sweet taste of love on a slow summer's day.

The wind knows the songs of cities and canyons, the thunder of mountains, the roar of the sea.
The wind is the taker and giver of mornings, the wind is the symbol of all that is free.

So welcome the wind and the wisdom she offers, follow her summons when she calls again.
In your heart and your spirit, let the breezes surround you.
Lift up your voice then and sing with the wind.

The imagery in the song is so beautiful--and whilst I believe that God is the bringer of dawn and the builder of rainbows, this song does remind me that we have an obligation to the earth and we can learn by sitting still and listening to the wind.

Your friend,

Faithful

 

[cristianna]

That song does have terrific imagery in it! Thank you for sharing! And Happy Tuesday everyone!