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Reconciling "begotten" and "eternally"

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GratiaCorpusChristi

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FYI, to further understand Arius' position, it helps to know his doctrine arose out from a tradition that began with Theodotus of Byzantium c190ad.

" Hippolytus stated that Theodotus was a native of Byzantium, who denied Christ in time of persecution—a fact which accounted for his heresy, since he could thus maintain that he had only denied man, not God. "
Book Information | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

For more, google adoptionism (Arius, Lucien of Antioch, Paul of Samasoto, Theodotus of Byzantium).

Adoptionism tries to tie 'begotten' at Jesus' baptism as Christ, rather than eternally begotten.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But thank you.

Since you bolded that phrase in my post, I suppose I should explain what I meant.

Arianism definitely has a strand in which Jesus of Nazareth is adopted and united to the created Logos in his baptism. Understanding that the incarnation is, therefore, does not mean that the Logos of God is universally, totally, fully, and always found in the person and work of Jesus Christ opens up a whole world of alternative authorities.

Thus, Arianism had room for the divine authority mediated through the Logos to exercise itself outside the revelation of Jesus Christ. This manifested itself particularly through the emperors. Therefore, the emperors of the fourth century, who were successors of Roman emperors who had functioned as demigods (fully deified on death, and therefore each emperor was a son of a god) and the high priests of the empire, were particularly attracted to a form of Christianity that justified their authority in such a way as to retain their quasi-divine status. The Logos, then, could operate in the emperors in the same way it operated in Christ.

The courage of Constantine was that, despite the semi-divine praise heaped on him by Eusebius of Caesarea (who was occasionally sympathetic to Arianism), he supported the position that reduced his authority to that of a delegated authority of the ruling office. His successors weren't that courageous or pious; throughout the fourth century there were multiple attempts to institute Arianism by sympathetic emperors who ignored the Council of Nicea. It took Theodosios (who was nowhere near as tolerate of religious diversity as Constantine) to reaffirm Nicea at the Council of Constantinople in 381.

Anyways, that's something I'd like to do more research on, but the relationship between religio-political totalitarianism and Arianism is well documented. The fullness of the Trinitarian doctrine of Nicea and the doctrine of the incarnation at Chalcedon is, ultimately, a challenge to all claims for authority apart from the gospel.
 
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Martinius

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How can anyone eternally be a "Son"? It's the same thing. :)

Not quite the same thing, but it certainly leads to a similar question. Normally, a father exists before, and ranks above, his son, but that is not the case here (although I suspect that many Christians see the Trinity as also a hierarchy). And a father can "beget" a son, but not eternally. I asked about the dichotomy between "eternally" and "begotten" because they are used together in the creeds, and to keep the focus on that contradictory idea without mucking it up with other issues. What it means to be "Son of God" is a whole other (although related) discussion.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Not quite the same thing, but it certainly leads to a similar question. Normally, a father exists before, and ranks above, his son, but that is not the case here (although I suspect that many Christians see the Trinity as also a hierarchy). And a father can "beget" a son, but not eternally. I asked about the dichotomy between "eternally" and "begotten" because they are used together in the creeds, and to keep the focus on that contradictory idea without mucking it up with other issues. What it means to be "Son of God" is a whole other (although related) discussion.

I would just like to note that you, more than most, have really gotten to the heart of the issue. How someone can be both eternal and begotten is exactly the issue that was up for debate at Nicea.
 
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Cappadocious

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Cappadocious

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A few days ago I read something that triggered a question about the terms "begotten" and "eternally".

My question is: How could Christ be eternal yet at the same time "begotten of the Father"?

Consider a lake that is eternally fed from a river. The river generates the lake, yet both have always existed.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I was not responding to you. My apologies for the confusion. I also did not mean to shut that person down by making it clear that their position was the ancient heresy known as modalism (which was condemned both by the Arians and the Nicene party), but to make people aware of the fact that their view is not the view of Nicene Christianity.



As I already explained, the Apostles' Creed is not earlier. The Old Roman Creed is, but the purpose of the Old Roman Creed was to exclude pagans from the baptismal rite, whereas the purpose of the Visigothic "Apostles'" Creed was to include both Arians and Catholics.



The historical focus has always been on Arius because he was the chief proponent of the view that the Son is not God together with the Father, but was the first of all created beings. Your original question, regarding the meaning of words in the Nicene Creed, must touch on Arius because that wording was put in there specifically to condemn his position. Of course Arius was part of a broader theological movement, but the issue at hand- the wording and meaning of the Nicene Symbol- is specifically the issue of Arius' different interpretation of "eternal" and "begotten." You cannot discuss one without reference to the other.



Certainly there was more theological and liturgical variety in the early church than the forms of belief and practice that were codified at Nicea and in the subsequent councils. And of course there was theological development.

However, my point was that everyone at the council came from churches in which Jesus had been worshiped as God as long as anyone could remember. The excellent work on apostolic christology by Larry Hurtado is just one good example of a whole field of contemporary christological studies confirming what everyone, Arius included, at Nicea knew.

My point was not that this was necessarily true everywhere (the Ebionites, for example, were a divergent faction in the early church that probably did not worship Jesus as God), but that Arius, in his sincere desire to show that he was orthodox (his whole point, after all, was to combat modalism, a belief everyone agreed was heretical), conceded that Jesus had always been worshiped as God in the church. If you actually read his own writings and the writings of later Arians, you can see that they are all willing to concede that from the perspective of worship, they were willing to call Jesus "God" because they accepted this universal practice of the non-gnostic, non-modalistic, non-Montanist church (i.e., the Catholic Church, as far as both Arius and his opponents were concerned).

Now, this goes back to my original point: both Arius and his opponents, particularly Hilary of Poitiers and Alexander of Alexandria (Athanasius would only write after Arius' death against later Arians who had at that point received imperial patronage because Arianism was a particularly attractive to justify supreme earthy authority- more on that later if it comes up) agreed on a certain existing framework of praxis within which they defined their theology. This does not mean this was always the case in every place, but it does mean that when it comes to understanding the meaning of 'eternal,' 'generated,' and 'homoousious' within the context of the Arian-Nicene controversy, we are working within an agreed-upon framework that is monotheistic, anti-modalist, and worships Jesus of Nazareth as God.



By Cyril's time (active 412-444), after the Council of Constantinople in 381, the formulate "eternally begotten of the Father" was universally agreed upon and a basic criteria for having full civil rights and liberties within the empire. The Arians were at that point largely confined to Gothic populations moving westward across northern Europe, having been converted by Wulfila, and Arian bishop supported by the Arian emperors of the mid-fourth century. Cyril lived in a time in which Augustine in the west and the Cappadocian fathers in the east had made it very clear what they meant by "eternally begotten of the Father" (and they agreed on this point).



To be a heretic is to expressly deny the truths expressed in the ecumenical creeds, so while I would identify people's beliefs as modalist or Arian, I would not accuse them of heresy unless they publicly denied what the church catholic has professed, in accordance with the Scriptures, since antiquity.


This has been a mini theme lately, I was curious, How does one apply this in their life if it is true? On the angle of application, I'm not sure if it matters.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Hmmm one could say the voice of God was begotten by the mouth of God in the beginning, because in the beginning Jesus was simply the voice of God who walked in the Garden during the cool of the day. But that would be using poetic license. It wasn't until he was born as a human, that the voice of God became flesh.

Also let's clarify, what word in some other language and what definition are you working with when you say 1) eternal and 2) begotten? I might agree but apply it differently because the words mean something different to me.
 
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Martinius

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Consider a lake that is eternally fed from a river. The river generates the lake, yet both have always existed.
Not really. It sounds like the river existed first, and neither eternally.
 
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younglite

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younglite

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The thread is in "Controversial Theology." There was an orthodox before the "orthodox" that was later "settled" in the 4th and 5th centuries.

The river generates the lake, yet both have always existed.

As Martinius succinctly stated, it sounds like the river existed first. If the river had to generate the lake, then it was prior to the lake.
 
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Martinius

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The thread is in "Controversial Theology." There was an orthodox before the "orthodox" that was later "settled" in the 4th and 5th centuries.



As Martinius succinctly stated, it sounds like the river existed first. If the river had to generate the lake, then it was prior to the lake.
Thank you. From my experience and knowledge of waterways, it seems that a lake is often created from streams of water flowing in, while rivers often flow out of lakes. So one or the other must usually occur first. I am not sure what this has to do with theology of the Trinity.

My OP (from 4 years ago!) was about the lack of clarity regarding the terms "begotten" and "eternally" being used together. No one has so far made it any clearer.
 
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younglite

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Martinius, the reason why "eternally begotten" isn't clear is because it isn't possible. All kinds of theological gymnastics are used to make the two concepts work together, which end up nullifying one or the other. I believe the Son is both eternal and begotten, but not eternally begotten.
 
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Cappadocious

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As Martinius succinctly stated, it sounds like the river existed first. If the river had to generate the lake, then it was prior to the lake.
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, mate, but it sounds like you're endorsing a sort of idea like this:

"Necessarily, if x is a cause of y, then x is temporally prior to y"

Is that the sort of idea you're endorsing?

If so, do you also endorse this:

"Necessarily, if x explains y, then x is temporally prior to y"?
 
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Cappadocious

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Martinius, the reason why "eternally begotten" isn't clear is because it isn't possible. All kinds of theological gymnastics are used to make the two concepts work together, which end up nullifying one or the other. I believe the Son is both eternal and begotten, but not eternally begotten.
You aren't allowed to speak about this outside of controversial theology (I guess that's the new name for unorthodox) because it contradicts the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
 
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Martinius

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You aren't allowed to speak about this outside of controversial theology (I guess that's the new name for unorthodox) because it contradicts the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
My original query of four years ago was about reconciling the terms, not about the theology. I see a contradiction in using the words together, when they separately imply opposite processes. Historically, was it done that way to appease different parties in the discussion, or was one of the words added later to clarify what was intended, but then made it even more murky? To me, we could say one or the other but not both.

It is like we have had this statement in the creed that makes no sense, but we just keep repeating it with no understanding whatsoever of what it means. I have come to believe that such murkiness was not intended and that the first Apostles, if you would bring the idea of eternally and begotten being combined into one idea would have appeared confused themselves. They would probably wonder why someone would spend so much time on obscure and unimportant arguments when they had little if anything to do with being a follower of Christ and responding to his Gospel, which at the time was more urgent and important. If the second coming of Christ had occurred within 50 years or so after his execution, none of it would have mattered. But 300 years after it seems that it was more theological argument than evangelizing that was happening.
 
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