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Recent communication between EO and OO?

dzheremi

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I see. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the theology of Palamas to comment, Father. Sorry.

Again, I just meant to underline that HH has been wrong about things, and this is one of those things that even Copts like Fr. Athanasius Iskander have pointed out. This doesn't really say anything about Palamas, though, as most Copts (and me) don't really know him. He's too late.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you for explaining further. I'm glad to know your communion is still councilliar.
 
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ArmyMatt

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yeah, I know. a Coptic deacon used that point wisely when trying to tell Fr John Behr neither side should rush to reunion, as we both have had theologians of our own history long after the split.
 
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dzheremi

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Just different ways of expressing things, I suppose.

If you compare your standard EO icon, with its elongated fingers and enlarged eyes and such, with a traditional Coptic icon like the Christ Pantocrator icon from the monastery of St. Anthony (12th century), you'll find all those same motifs (elongated fingers, enlarged eyes), but in an overall setting that is perhaps a bit softer than the EO style -- the color pallet is more red/brown than gold/yellow, and there's an emphasis on roundness, as in the faces of the cherubim and the moon. (I tried to insert the actual icon earlier and just got a red X, but it's here if you want to see it).

As to how things got that way...that's more difficult. We know from things like the Fayyum mummy portraits (which were still being produced into the second century AD) that the Egyptians could make more realistic art, so I can only guess that just as in the EO case, the development of Coptic iconography represented a deliberate move away from realism.

None of the books I have on Coptic art seem to address this, unfortunately, as they're all written from an art historian's perspective, not a comparative religion perspective or whatever you'd call it. I am fairly certain that the available icons and wood reliefs that we have from the 5th and 6th centuries (some of which you can see at Wikipedia) show that already by that time Coptic iconography was quite well established in the form that it would have for centuries (I would say "until today", but in truth we've been iconographically Byzantinized to a large degree, at least in the diaspora, so you don't really see icons like that Christ Pantocrator anymore, or very, very rarely), so I don't think it's possible that this would have spontaneously arisen after Chalcedon...
 
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ArmyMatt

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Coptic icons by and large just look odd. Super simplistic, out of proportion with huge heads and little bodies, very unusual style. I wonder why the difference? I've always wondered.

I always liked the Coptic style. Georgians have a unique style as well, with the icons almost looking stretched longways. the Carpathos/Ukrainians also can have a more Western style too, due to Latin influence. I like them all.
 
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I don't like Western style icons at all. The coptic, imho, are the absolute worst. My wife thinks they creep her out. I'm a Byzantine style fan....oh, and painted!

I always liked the Coptic style. Georgians have a unique style as well, with the icons almost looking stretched longways. the Carpathos/Ukrainians also can have a more Western style too, due to Latin influence. I like them all.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I don't like Western style icons at all. The coptic, imho, are the absolute worst. My wife thinks they creep her out. I'm a Byzantine style fan....oh, and painted!

to each their own. my line with Western style is when they start getting dynamic, and they loose their serenity (i.e. Christ in agony on the Cross).
 
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Barney2.0

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It’s very ridiculous that the Oriental Churches are still seperate from the Eastern Orthodox Church, it’s about time for a reunion. I always loved Coptic Iconography, it’s very simple yet very lovely.
 
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I can’t stand the misshapen and creepy iconography, but the reunion?—-HECK YEAH!

It’s very ridiculous that the Oriental Churches are still seperate from the Eastern Orthodox Church, it’s about time for a reunion. I always loved Coptic Iconography, it’s very simple yet very lovely.
 
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~Anastasia~

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To be honest there are some icons I like (and usually some I dislike) of each style. The Byzantine are most familiar to me so I prefer them. I do like quite of few of the Coptic ones that I didn't even separate out in my mind as Coptic - I suppose mostly the older ones it seems? There are a few western styled ones I like, but many of them go way over the line for me. They'd make nice portraits, but they don't or can't function as icons for me. Too realistic.

I'm curious about something? One of the examples that really struck me was GxG's signature. This icon:



That style strikes me as very different. I immediately notice the shapes of the eyes in such an icon (especially one like this with so many faces). And they often seem very vibrant in color to me. I guess I am used to them in that I like them now, but more as a stylized artistic depiction rather than being inspired by them as an icon normally does.

I'm just curious - can you tell me where this style fits into the "family tree" of iconography? And would you say this type is characterized by the almond-shaped eyes and bright colors, or did I just happen to see a few like that?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think that's Malakar Indian Iconography.
 
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dzheremi

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That's Ethiopian/Eritrean Tewahedo, not Malankara Orthodox. Malankara Orthodox is basically a subtype of Syriac Orthodox, though they certainly feature iconography like that, assuming they follow the Syriac way and do not Byzantize or Latinize their art (which, again, is rare for OO, at least in the diaspora). Examples like that of the noticeably rounded eye shape are found throughout the OO churches.
 
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dzheremi

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Examples:


Armenian Pentecost, from illustrated manuscript (c. 14th century?)


Syriac Orthodox last supper, 12th century


Same, but from the Armenians, 14th century


"Deposition of Christ from the Cross", Faras Cathedral (Nubia), 10th century


A more modern interpretation of the Syriac Orthodox last supper scene by Nasra Şimmes Hindi (1924-2016), woven on cloth as the Syriacs do in Tur Abdin. You can find cloths like this hanging up in some areas of the nearby Deir ul-Zafaran monastery (est. 397 AD).
 
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