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Recent communication between EO and OO?

dzheremi

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All dialogue that I know of is local, as Fr. Matt says. It often leads to good relations on a community level, e.g., we had Greeks come to our liturgies in NM on occasion, and I'm told that we had gone to theirs and received from them -- with the permission of the EO and OO bishops of the area, of course -- before we had our own priests come from Arizona so that we could have our own church, ~20 years ago. So we see each other in our respective churches, and not just in a theoretical or philosophical fashion (sometimes people actually show up). That builds good bonds, as does the presence of Ethiopians and Eritreans among the OCA and Bulgarian churches back home in my home area of northern California (who I must assume are officially received into the EO church at some point to be able to commune there, but from all I saw keep their distinctive forms of worship, however odd they may seem to the dominant "always been Chalcedonians" or whatever you'd call the already-EO in an EO church with recently ex-OO in it). Granted, none of this amounts to more than that (on an 'official' level), but it's a start.

The agreements re: the Copts and Greeks in the patriarchal territory of Alexandria, or the broader agreement between the Antiochian EO and the Syriac OO are several years old by this point, so I assume you know about them, OP. Everything I've heard since then from talking to OO people involved in the dialogue at an official level suggests that we are accepting of the EO in the main (i.e., Christological issues are resolved), but the process of formal reunion involves a lot of details that are not yet resolved to the mutual satisfaction of the participants.

This is basically how every attempt to reunite has gone since the rapprochement of the OO and EO in the time of HH Catholicos Nerses Shnorhali (12th century), so I don't know why we think we'll do better now, but...well...may we do better now anyway. Lord have mercy.
 
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HTacianas

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A while back, I forget how long ago, the Greek and Coptic churches agreed that mixed marriages are valid. Considering that they were at one time killing each other, I see that as significant progress.
 
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dzheremi

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Yes. That was the agreement reached in the patriarchal territory of Alexandria proper, due to the high number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples there. As far as I understand, it does not apply outside of that territory (please correct me if you know it to be otherwise). See, for instance, the reply of HG Bishop Youssef of the Southern United States Diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Church concerning the possibility of a 'mixed marriage' between a Coptic Orthodox believer and a Roman Catholic (found on the SUS Diocese's Q&A page):


I am a practicing Catholic recently got engaged to a practicing Coptic Orthodox. We have always supported each other's religion, and attended services at both churches. Since both of us are from one apostolic church, why then, do I need to convert in order to be married in the.Orthodox Church?

Marriage is one of the Church's mysteries through which a man and a women unite becoming no longer two, but one. To be one in everything, they need to hold the exact same faith, not only in our Lord Jesus Christ; but also in the Church's dogmas. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church has now a good number of dogmas that are not biblical and therefore rejected by our Coptic Church; some examples are the Immaculate Conception, the Purgatory, the infallibility of the Pope and more.

Recently the Catholic Church has been accepting and performing mixed marriages, not only between a Catholic and a Christian from another different denomination, but even between a Catholic and a person from another religion. However, this is not the case with the Coptic Church. In the Coptic Crowning ceremony (i.e. the marriage ceremony) the officiating priest puts the priesthood robe on the bridegroom; thus symbolizing that he is the priest of this new family being formed through Holy Spirit. How can one be a priest to a family each member of which believe in different dogmas.

We do believe that the Catholic Church is an Apostolic Church; but until we resolve these dogmatic dissimilarities; we are not in full communion. I highly recommend that you sit with a Coptic priest and get him to explain to both of you the differences between the two faiths. Believe me, it is very important for your marriage that both of you have the same beliefs and commit yourselves to one Church so that your future children feel they belong to one Church and do not get confused.

+++

And concerning marriage to an Albanian Orthodox (EO), HG says:

Four years ago I met a wonderful person. For the past year he and I have had the intention of getting married but of course the issue of rebaptism has been our primary dilemma. We have finally found an Albanian Orthodox Church that does not require him to be baptized again. All he would need is anointing with Myron oil. We both understand that the Albanian Orthodox Church is considered part of the Eastern Orthodox Church while the Coptic Church is considered part of the Oriental Orthodox. With this in mind, both he and I are very comfortable with our decision to get married in the Albanian Orthodox church. However, when I told Abouna and my father about this decision neither one was satisfied. We want to get married and at the same time please both our parents and the church. At this point we are ready to go forth with our wedding in the Albanian Orthodox church as planned but we are turning to you for advice.

I see that you are aware of the differences between the two families of churches. It is unfortunate that the Albanian Church does accept the baptism of the Protestants since their faith is way different than the Orthodox faith. Baptism is not only in the name of the Trinity, but it is a declaration to accept all the dogmas of the Church in which one is baptized. The Protestant view on salvation is totally different and definitely rejected by our Orthodox Church. His Holiness Pope Shenouda wrote a very good book called "Comparative Theology" pointing the differences in faith between us and other churches. How can one be baptized in a faith that rejects tradition, priesthood, icons, the intercession of the saints, incense etc. and expects that his baptism be accepted in an Orthodox church!

With all due respect I feel that this is just a way for the Albanian Church to attract more members to its congregation. In any case I am sure you are aware that once you marry in the Albanian Church you will not be able to partake of the holy Eucharist in the Coptic Orthodox Church; for although we do accept their baptism we are not in communion with them in any other sacrament.

I think you need to reconsider your decision and talk it out with your friend telling him that he should at least consider that insisting on not being baptized in the Coptic Church will consequently make you loose your church and sadden your parents.

+++

As you can see, the view is decidedly negative. It is in my personal view quite unfortunate, but that's the reality of where we seem to be.
 
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The Catholic Church is parsecs from Orthodoxy nowadays. But the Coptics, geez, they're like a millimeter from Orthodoxy, and it could so easily be overcome. But if it goes anything like the conversation between you and Jeremy, I think we won't reunite until around 3048 AD ^_^

it certainly is one of the great tragedies for sure
 
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ArmyMatt

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The Catholic Church is parsecs from Orthodoxy nowadays. But the Coptics, geez, they're like a millimeter from Orthodoxy, and it could so easily be overcome. But if it goes anything like the conversation between you and Jeremy, I think we won't reunite until around 3048 AD ^_^

well, not to derail, but that depends on who you talk to. because Palamism, two wills, two operations, etc which are also non-negotiable for us, many of them reject. Pope Shenouda, who is VERY important to them and beloved by them, wrote against Palamism.
 
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Dang, and I always liked Shenouda, too. He's obviously wrong then. I'm familiar with Palamism.

well, not to derail, but that depends on who you talk to. because Palamism, two wills, two operations, etc which are also non-negotiable for us, many of them reject. Pope Shenouda, who is VERY important to them and beloved by them, wrote against Palamism.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Dang, and I always liked Shenouda, too. He's obviously wrong then. I'm familiar with Palamism.

there is no doubt that he is of HUGE theological importance, and therefore important to the dialogue. but yeah, no fan of Palamas, who is hugely important to us. and I have spoken to some who are not fans of St Maximos the confessor, because he taught two wills and two energies. it really is the 6th council that's the real stumbling block.
 
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St. Maximos!!? Oh man. Them's fightin' words!!! I love him!! He and Palamas are titans!

there is no doubt that he is of HUGE theological importance, and therefore important to the dialogue. but yeah, no fan of Palamas, who is hugely important to us. and I have spoken to some who are not fans of St Maximos the confessor, because he taught two wills and two energies. it really is the 6th council that's the real stumbling block.
 
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dzheremi

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well, not to derail, but that depends on who you talk to. because Palamism, two wills, two operations, etc which are also non-negotiable for us, many of them reject. Pope Shenouda, who is VERY important to them and beloved by them, wrote against Palamism.

If you are referring by this to his conflict with Fr. Matthew the Poor and the fight over essence/energies distinction (forgive me if this isn't what goes under the label of Palamism; I am not EO, obviously, so it's outside of my scope of interest), it is largely understood now that HH was answering various questions that had come up from inaccurate translations into Arabic concerning the essence/energies distinction, and because there are some people who (sadly, misguidedly, wrongly) take every single thing that HH wrote or said as though it is holy writ, the idea that he could have just been not writing correctly or maybe even not understanding the terms properly himself seems like blasphemy. That's silly of course, but that doesn't make it any less plausible. We're supposed to not be like the Romans in their slavish devotion to the man in the chair. (Maybe I am extra-sensitive or a little bit more negative than average about this, though, because I came from Roman Catholicism...I don't know...I am not a good judge of myself; Lord have mercy.)

But it did create this situation in which there were some who still maintain that the essence/energies distinction is some sort of Chalcedonian voodoo or something, while on the other hand I have heard it spoken of approvingly (in person, too) by my own priest and bishop. If there is one thing that we desperately need to deal with, it's this "cult of Pope Shenouda" which refuses to look again at the facts, and misses or ignores the truth, such as when our father HH St. Cyril says (in his dialogues on the Trinity) “We are called ‘temples of God’ and indeed ‘gods’, and so we are. Why is that? Inquire of our opponents whether we are really sharers in a bare grace without subsistence. But that is not the case. For we are temples of the real and subsisting Spirit. And it is through him that we are called ‘gods’, since by union with him we have become partakers of the divine and ineffable nature (cf. 2 Pet. 1: 4)."

This situation even led to times when our holy priests had to stand up for Orthodoxy to people like H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy (a very controversial figure within the Church anyway), as in the case of one Fr. Athanasius (I believe this is a priest in Kitchener, Ont., but I am not sure), who wrote a two-page refutation of the specific errors as printed in El Keraza (the Church newspaper, in Arabic), going so far as calling for the Holy Synod to investigate H.E. for spreading what amount to lies against the fathers by teaching things contrary to the wisdom of St. Cyril as found above and the other quotations found in the refutation, such as St. Gregory Nazianzen and St. Didymus the Blind.

H.E. can believe whatever nonsense he wants, but he can be censured (and in my opinion and the opinion of many others, probably should be; the entire Church seemed to breathe a sigh of relief when he was taken out of the pool of potential Papal candidates a few years ago), or, if it reaches that far, be deposed from his position. No one has the right to foist their personal views on the Church if those are against the fathers, as they were in this case, whether it is HH Pope Shenouda III or H.E. Anba Bishoy, or anyone else.

Believe me, I'm not happy to air our dirty laundry like this, but I just want you guys to know that this is an ongoing thing, and there are many, many Copts who are being taught correctly even as some of our leaders remain in the cult of HH Pope Shenouda III (who I love deeply and sincerely, but I must acknowledge he was a man and like all men not immune from speaking or writing mistakenly; I actually avoid his books if I can, because they are so poorly translated into English that sometimes it's difficult to even understand what HH means in a given passage). This is something that we must fight for ourselves, of course, and even more to the point for the sake of Christ, and the faith as we most definitely have received it.

I don't know anything about Coptic opinions on Maximos or any of these later figures as figures, but the essence/energies thing was left in a mess, so we're still cleaning house, so to speak. Lord have mercy.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you for the info.

So I'm gathering (please excuse my extreme ignorance) that the OO (or Copts?) have a single Chair/See? It sounds like it can lead to the kinds of problems I have assumed it was at the root of (in some cases) for Catholicism? (Meaning too much influence to set doctrine centered in one person.) I'm not happy to know that's right if it means it has caused problems. But just wondering if I understand you?
 
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dzheremi

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Thank you for the info.

So I'm gathering (please excuse my extreme ignorance) that the OO (or Copts?) have a single Chair/See? It sounds like it can lead to the kinds of problems I have assumed it was at the root of (in some cases) for Catholicism? (Meaning too much influence to set doctrine centered in one person.) I'm not happy to know that's right if it means it has caused problems. But just wondering if I understand you?

No, no, no. I'm sorry. I didn't mean anything like that. My point was more that insofar as you can find something objectionable in HH Pope Shenouda III's writings, so can we, the difference being that some of us are not willing to admit it. Perhaps it is because HH was recently declared a saint, to which I would say so was St. Justin Martyr in the pre-congregation times, but that doesn't make his seeming acceptance of creation out of preexisting matter somehow magically be "the Orthodox position" or whatever you'd call it. That's simply not how things work.

When I wrote about the man in the chair, I was talking about the deference that some Copts pay to the Coptic Pope that seems to be de facto akin to the same syndrome in the Latins, in terms of its rabidness and its lack of critical thought (even though the Copts wouldn't realize it or necessarily talk about it in those same terms). No doubt this is especially heavy and sensitive when it comes to HH Pope Shenouda III, because he has recently departed within everyone's memory, and for many who are of a certain age he is the only Pope that they really remember (HH Cyril VI having passed in 1971). That ought not change our ecclesiological principles, however, which are traditional in the Orthodox, conciliar sense. One of the very first things that HH Pope Tawadros II did after being elevated was decree his intention to root out precisely this tendency, and so he declared "We are a conciliar Church", and set about working to try to fix some of the things that HH Pope Shenouda III's very long papacy had set in place and/or left ossified that needed to be dealt with, like finally getting some darn bishops for the ecclesiological badlands that we call Canada.

The OO Church does not have, and has never had, and never will have, one chair. Our ecclesiology does not allow such a thing. Etchmiadzin of the Armenians, Axum of the Ethiopians, and wherever it is that the Syriacs have been chased to thanks to the war/Islamist takeover of Syria (Beirut, I think) all function just fine. We are actually less tightly held-together in that way than you guys are, as we lack an equivalent of the EP. Some will argue (of these particular churches...totally coincidentally, I'm sure :rolleyes:) that the Patriarch of Alexandria or of the Syriac Orthodox should have this role, but that doesn't make it a thing. Hence, just for instance, we mention by name the Patriarch of Antioch (one of the oldest churches of the communion) and the Patriarch of Eritrea (one of the newest, in terms of their 1990s autocephaly) in every Coptic liturgy, because this is following an agreement that we have with these churches in particular. It does not say anything regarding who would or should be ranked where. We don't really do that.
 
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ArmyMatt

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If you are referring by this to his conflict with Fr. Matthew the Poor and the fight over essence/energies distinction (forgive me if this isn't what goes under the label of Palamism; I am not EO, obviously, so it's outside of my scope of interest), it is largely understood now that HH was answering various questions that had come up from inaccurate translations into Arabic concerning the essence/energies distinction, and because there are some people who (sadly, misguidedly, wrongly) take every single thing that HH wrote or said as though it is holy writ, the idea that he could have just been not writing correctly or maybe even not understanding the terms properly himself seems like blasphemy. That's silly of course, but that doesn't make it any less plausible. We're supposed to not be like the Romans in their slavish devotion to the man in the chair. (Maybe I am extra-sensitive or a little bit more negative than average about this, though, because I came from Roman Catholicism...I don't know...I am not a good judge of myself; Lord have mercy.)

But it did create this situation in which there were some who still maintain that the essence/energies distinction is some sort of Chalcedonian voodoo or something, while on the other hand I have heard it spoken of approvingly (in person, too) by my own priest and bishop. If there is one thing that we desperately need to deal with, it's this "cult of Pope Shenouda" which refuses to look again at the facts, and misses or ignores the truth, such as when our father HH St. Cyril says (in his dialogues on the Trinity) “We are called ‘temples of God’ and indeed ‘gods’, and so we are. Why is that? Inquire of our opponents whether we are really sharers in a bare grace without subsistence. But that is not the case. For we are temples of the real and subsisting Spirit. And it is through him that we are called ‘gods’, since by union with him we have become partakers of the divine and ineffable nature (cf. 2 Pet. 1: 4)."

This situation even led to times when our holy priests had to stand up for Orthodoxy to people like H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy (a very controversial figure within the Church anyway), as in the case of one Fr. Athanasius (I believe this is a priest in Kitchener, Ont., but I am not sure), who wrote a two-page refutation of the specific errors as printed in El Keraza (the Church newspaper, in Arabic), going so far as calling for the Holy Synod to investigate H.E. for spreading what amount to lies against the fathers by teaching things contrary to the wisdom of St. Cyril as found above and the other quotations found in the refutation, such as St. Gregory Nazianzen and St. Didymus the Blind.

H.E. can believe whatever nonsense he wants, but he can be censured (and in my opinion and the opinion of many others, probably should be; the entire Church seemed to breathe a sigh of relief when he was taken out of the pool of potential Papal candidates a few years ago), or, if it reaches that far, be deposed from his position. No one has the right to foist their personal views on the Church if those are against the fathers, as they were in this case, whether it is HH Pope Shenouda III or H.E. Anba Bishoy, or anyone else.

Believe me, I'm not happy to air our dirty laundry like this, but I just want you guys to know that this is an ongoing thing, and there are many, many Copts who are being taught correctly even as some of our leaders remain in the cult of HH Pope Shenouda III (who I love deeply and sincerely, but I must acknowledge he was a man and like all men not immune from speaking or writing mistakenly; I actually avoid his books if I can, because they are so poorly translated into English that sometimes it's difficult to even understand what HH means in a given passage). This is something that we must fight for ourselves, of course, and even more to the point for the sake of Christ, and the faith as we most definitely have received it.

I don't know anything about Coptic opinions on Maximos or any of these later figures as figures, but the essence/energies thing was left in a mess, so we're still cleaning house, so to speak. Lord have mercy.

well, I had a buddy, who read Deification of Man, who thought that only language divided us, until he read the book. it's pretty much one big straw man against Palamism. I dunno if that's the book you mean.

be that as it may, I have had more than one non-Chalcedonian say theosis as Palamas describes it impossible, and call the two energies and two wills heresy.
 
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