Receive Christ The Justified By Works, Or Justified Then Works?

[jmacvols]

LOL! You can call the sky pink, if you want, but that doesn't make it so.

I didn't call the sky pink, I gave book, chapter, verse for what I said.

And if I did, you would not have received it. Pearls, you know....

But you haven't....

And it's rather comical that you look for a sequential 1-2-3 order in every verse you read, and try to find one, no matter what. Just because somethings are spoken of in scripture, one after the other, doesn't necessarily mean that a doctrinal order is being given. Nor is every verse a doctrinal statement applicable to multiple doctrines. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar....

I am not asking about every verse just two: Acts 2:38 & Mk 16:16. There is sequential order in those two verses. Certain words come before other words. You would have to completely re-arrange the verses, pervert them in other words, to get them to say what you wished it did.

No, I am quite correct in calling your beliefs Neonomianism. obedience and works are result of Salvation, not the cause of Salvation. Salvation is by Grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God, and not of works lest any man should boast.. QED

No, I showed earlier form wikipedia that "neomoniansim" is about those that replace the free gospel with their own works. I have never said one can be saved by their own works, i.e., works of merit per Eph 2:9.

Does the word "faith" in Eph 2:8 include or exclude obedience?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God's word to man is unlike His word to demons. His word is for salvation, we hear, it is patient and kind, promising a future and a hope, convicts of sin and sometimes destiny, and there is repentence.

Repentance is not a meritous work.

Testimonies make us thirsty for God. A seasoned pastor should have a ready answer for any question and a testimony. Timothy.

Look at the horrors of WW2. A Korean pastor saw first hand the horrors of Japanese soldiers in Korea, as he rose up to be a pastor, he was unhappy as he was called to preach in Japan.

Once there he could not forgive them. But as before the pulpit, they saw his trouble, and went forward and applied Jesus blood to him, and he was moved by Jesus blood to forgive them.

To be justified, you have to be willing to listen, that may mean being taken to church. The angels war over us. God saves us into obedience.

Jesus blood is applied either at request in faith, or in agreement, or as intercession.

I would say, God's word and Jesus blood can move someone to repent.

Also as in Phil 2:12-13, they obeyed by salvation. Initialy words and faith and angels and the Spirit. Then obedience. Then the Spirit more and for sanctification over the rest of their lives. But if they died repentant, they would live in Heaven.

Faith without works is dead, to a Pentecostal, means, you receive, by faith, you give by faith. Giving is part of the life of faith.

Even someone quite lost, but hates their life, or in a close to death situation, or both, can be interceded for and repent. The Spirit acts. All they are is not prone to cling to sin, be conscientious like anyone else, and the Spirit works the latter two, and then moves on him for heart repentance. He forgives.

Then weeks after repenting, they sin, know it and ask for Jesus blood to fall on them, no doubts, faith, and His blood falls on them, or him, or her, who is accepting, and sin is driven away, fear is gone, food tastes good, they behave justly, they call on Jesus name, want hear God's word preached...

We receieve Jesus blood whenever we ask in faith for God's glory.

When was Peter the disciple justified?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Luke 18 is cool.

First on continually asking, then about justice to an adversary, then on faith. Faith needs forgiveness or is feeble. We ask after forgiving. Justice and forgiveness need be balanced.

Then Jesus in ch 18 tells of a man who is justified through humility in faith.

Then Jesus mentions children may come freely and by their childlike trust receive the kingdom readily.

Then a young man comes asking about eternal life. He claims since he was a youth, he obeyed the commands. The commands mean he wa saying he was clean, not mastered by the Devil. He just needed to give his money to God's pleasure, to benefit the poor.

Then follow Jesus. This would mean he would have a rich reward and the kingdom. God before mammon, his last obstacle.

He is sad... but his salvation is not impossible, God can yet change his heart.

The twelve and others are told of their reward to come! Then aside, the twelve alone are told, a statement with hidden meaning that, Jesus must suffer soon, which was needed we know now for salvation. Also that He would rise.

So justice, persistance, faith, answers, humility, innocence, trust and receive, the clean way, the commands, God before money, God's saving power is much, rich rewards for sacrifice, Jesus sacrifice is for salvation and cleansing, then a man of simple faith persists and by faith he receives his sight.

Jesus says not, "you have faith and ask rightly so my anointing heals you." he says instead,"Receive your sight, your faith has made you well."

Faith does the work.

He sees! He follows Jesus, glorifies God, and their is praise.

When is he justified? He asks for mercy. Does his faith justify him? Does his faith make him obedient? He follows afterwards.

 

[nobdysfool]

I didn't call the sky pink, I gave book, chapter, verse for what I said.

My point is, just throwing out scriptures does not make you right. It is obvious that you do not rightly discern the scriptures.

But you haven't....

And I explained why, if you were discerning enough to understand.

I am not asking about every verse just two: Acts 2:38 & Mk 16:16. There is sequential order in those two verses. Certain words come before other words. You would have to completely re-arrange the verses, pervert them in other words, to get them to say what you wished it did.

The problem is, you take the word order as an inviolate description of the order that things happen, when it is simply a list of actions that those who have been regenerated should do, not to be saved, but as a witness that they are saved.

No, I showed earlier form wikipedia that "neomoniansim" is about those that replace the free gospel with their own works.

Wikipedia is hardly authoritative. How about a real authoritative source?

From this site,

A History of Hypo-Calvinism​

Marc D. Carpenter​

[SIZE=-1][FONT=”Arial,]Richard Baxter (1615-1691) held to a form of Amyraldianism, although he was less Calvinistic than Amyraut. [H]e devised an eclectic middle route between Reformed, Arminian, and Roman doctrines of grace: interpreting the kingdom of God in terms of contemporary political ideas, he explained Christ’s death as an act of universal redemption (penal and vicarious, but not substitutionary), in virtue of which God has made a new law offering pardon and amnesty to the penitent. Repentance and faith, being obedience to this law, are the believer’s personal saving righteousness. . . . [T]he fruit of the seeds which Baxter sowed was neonomian Moderatism in Scotland and moralistic Unitarianism in England.15 John Owen, in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, refuted Baxterianism and sent universal atonement to Hell where it belongs. It is astounding that Baxter has been promoted and published by those who profess to be Reformed.[/FONT][/SIZE]

And this: from "The History and Theology of Calvinism" by Daniel Curt

E. Neonomianism was similar to Preparationism, but more extreme and with significant deviations from mainstream Calvinism. Basically its theology is as follows. God can change the conditions of salvation, for salvation is based on His moral government (the divine will) rather than directly on His nature. And God has changed the standard of acceptance.
F. In the Covenant of Works, God required complete obedience. Adam failed, as have all his posterity. So God has instituted a ‘New Law’, the Gospel. In this Covenant, Christ died for our salvation to make it possible for God to accept a lessened form of obedience. This lesser form of perfect obedience is faith. But this faith must be accompanied by repentance and good works. Sometimes the Neonomians spoke of justification being conditional and progressive, contingent upon the good works that followed. In sum, the theory appeared to make faith, repentance and works part of the essence of justifying righteousness.

G. The Anti-Neonomians rejected all this. The Gospel is not a new or lesser Law. Rather, it is the Covenant of Grace. Faith is a condition, but it is a gift of God. Works are only important as evidence, not as essence, of justification. God never accepts less than perfection; we are accepted only because of the perfect work of Christ.

I have never said one can be saved by their own works, i.e., works of merit per Eph 2:9.

Does the word "faith" in Eph 2:8 include or exclude obedience?

I have rightly identified your theology as Neonomianism. Your refusal to accept or believe it is inconsequential. You teach Neonomian theology.

 

[jmacvols]

My point is, just throwing out scriptures does not make you right. It is obvious that you do not rightly discern the scriptures.

And I explained why, if you were discerning enough to understand.

The problem is, you take the word order as an inviolate description of the order that things happen, when it is simply a list of actions that those who have been regenerated should do, not to be saved, but as a witness that they are saved.

So you deny that there is order in Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16. Does Mk 16:16 teach one is saved first, then believes and is baptized later? Does Acts 2:38 say one has sins remitted first, then repents and is baptized later?
Calvinism blinds one to the obvious.

this[/url] site,

A History of Hypo-Calvinism​

Marc D. Carpenter​

[SIZE=-1][FONT=”Arial,]Richard Baxter (1615-1691) held to a form of Amyraldianism, although he was less Calvinistic than Amyraut. [H]e devised an eclectic middle route between Reformed, Arminian, and Roman doctrines of grace: interpreting the kingdom of God in terms of contemporary political ideas, he explained Christ’s death as an act of universal redemption (penal and vicarious, but not substitutionary), in virtue of which God has made a new law offering pardon and amnesty to the penitent. Repentance and faith, being obedience to this law, are the believer’s personal saving righteousness. . . . [T]he fruit of the seeds which Baxter sowed was neonomian Moderatism in Scotland and moralistic Unitarianism in England.15 John Owen, in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, refuted Baxterianism and sent universal atonement to Hell where it belongs. It is astounding that Baxter has been promoted and published by those who profess to be Reformed.[/FONT][/SIZE]

And this: from "The History and Theology of Calvinism" by Daniel Curt

E. Neonomianism was similar to Preparationism, but more extreme and with significant deviations from mainstream Calvinism. Basically its theology is as follows. God can change the conditions of salvation, for salvation is based on His moral government (the divine will) rather than directly on His nature. And God has changed the standard of acceptance.
F. In the Covenant of Works, God required complete obedience. Adam failed, as have all his posterity. So God has instituted a ‘New Law’, the Gospel. In this Covenant, Christ died for our salvation to make it possible for God to accept a lessened form of obedience. This lesser form of perfect obedience is faith. But this faith must be accompanied by repentance and good works. Sometimes the Neonomians spoke of justification being conditional and progressive, contingent upon the good works that followed. In sum, the theory appeared to make faith, repentance and works part of the essence of justifying righteousness.

G. The Anti-Neonomians rejected all this. The Gospel is not a new or lesser Law. Rather, it is the Covenant of Grace. Faith is a condition, but it is a gift of God. Works are only important as evidence, not as essence, of justification. God never accepts less than perfection; we are accepted only because of the perfect work of Christ.




I have rightly identified your theology as Neonomianism. Your refusal to accept or believe it is inconsequential. You teach Neonomian theology.

All the above proves is that you 1) apply false labels to others 2) take your theology from men. I quote scriptures you do not want to refute, and you quote the false ideas of men.

 

[jmacvols]

Repentance is not a meritous work.

No, but it is an act of obedience required by Christ, Lk 13:3,5.

To be justified, you have to be willing to listen, that may mean being taken to church. The angels war over us. God saves us into obedience.

In Rom 6:16-18 Paul says "obedience unto righteousness" and one obeys to become justified.

Jesus blood is applied either at request in faith, or in agreement, or as intercession.

I know of no verse that says such.

We receieve Jesus blood whenever we ask in faith for God's glory.

Again, I know of no verse that says such.

 

[nobdysfool]

So you deny that there is order in Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16. Does Mk 16:16 teach one is saved first, then believes and is baptized later? Does Acts 2:38 say one has sins remitted first, then repents and is baptized later?
Calvinism blinds one to the obvious.





All the above proves is that you 1) apply false labels to others 2) take your theology from men. I quote scriptures you do not want to refute, and you quote the false ideas of men.

Can't face up to the errors, Huh? Not surprised. Neonomianism is a false doctrine, and you are preaching it. Your charges against me are without merit, and a diversionary tactic to avoid dealing with the obvious errors of your false doctrine.

 

[Schroeder]

In Romans 6:16-18 Paul plainly shows that obedience is what makes one righteous (obedience unto righteousness) and makes one justified, (obeyed from the heart). In Rom 10:1-3 Paul shows obedience (submitting) to God's righteousness (commandments) saves. No one can be saved unless they are righteous and justified before God, and obedience is necessary to become both. Also in Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16, obedience comes before salvation in both verses. So it is evident that obedience to God's will comes before one can be saved.

I gave three verses that shows one must obey first before he can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

ran over hear i see. one is righteous if he obeys. sure your right. ROm 10 does NOT say this. other wise he contradicts himself in rom 8. you say one must be obediant to God BEFORE he is saved. YET in rom 8:5-10 it states one can NOT please GOd without the SPirit in them. SO how does one receive the SPirit in them in sin(when he cant be obediant or please God) you say we receive the PSirit when we are obediant to water baptism. OF course as stated HOW DO WE DO THIS IN SIN. how does it please God to get water baptized when he says we cant please him without the SPirit of Christ in us FIRST. MAybe that is why we are saved by GRACE. in acts 2:38 and mark 16:16 obediance does not come first. GRACE Does. the GRACE is Christ doing the work reguired to deal with SIN, which is the WHOLE ISSUE. Which is why in Jn. 6:29 he tells us the work reguired is to believe on his son. BECAUSE ghis son is the one who did the work to deal with sin. Christ is our new PREIST, he gave the BLOOD sacrifice reguired to deal with our sin to give us the forgiveness the other sacrifices could NEVER truelly cover. And why every verse that says to be saved NEVER EVER EVER speaks of water baptism first. IT is asked of both peter and paul what was needed to be SAVED and both of them said to BELIEVE on Christ. if you read mark 16:16 with jn 3:16-18 4:13 7:30-40 you see that indeed we believe and are given the SPirit(also known as spirit baptism) the one JTB said Christ would give us and theses verse relate to. You also see in eph 1:13-14 that believe then receiving the SPirit which goes with ALL of scripture. So in acts 2:38 we believe repent and are baptized by Christ and then most likely they were water baptized to show there association with Christ and the apostles teachings. SO in Mark 16:16 it says believe in me and be baptized by me and you will be saved. You cant be baptized by Christ if you do not believe in him can you. Acts 15:8 speaks of this with acts 10:43 and 11:16-17. its all there simple really.

 

[Schroeder]

Can't face up to the errors, Huh? Not surprised. Neonomianism is a false doctrine, and you are preaching it. Your charges against me are without merit, and a diversionary tactic to avoid dealing with the obvious errors of your false doctrine.

you got that right. hbe is very stubborn and wrong. Ask him about the joel prophecy, or what do you think of it in how he speaks of it in acts 2.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Romans 6:15-19 says we are under grace not law and obedience, we present ourselves, it is about mastery by obedience or sin. Obedience leads to the alternative of death.

There is lawlessness and more lawlessness, and there is righteousness and more righteousness and it is for holiness.

"But God be thanked"... ..."the heart that doctrine to which you were delivered. Having been set free from sin, you became slaves or righteousness."

To God be the glory. He delivers and sets free.

There are many quotes about asking and interceding, Ill add this in a few hours.

 

[nobdysfool]

you got that right. hbe is very stubborn and wrong. Ask him about the joel prophecy, or what do you think of it in how he speaks of it in acts 2.

Church of Christ people tend to be that way. They think they can "obey" their way to Heaven.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Mat 7:7 Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.
Mat 7:8 For each one who asks receives; and he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, if his son asks a loaf, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he asks a fish, will he give him a snake?
Mat 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask Him?

Mat 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you shall agree on earth as regarding anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.
Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said to them, Truly I say to you, If you have faith and do not doubt, you shall not only do this miracle of the fig tree, but also; if you shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be thrown into the sea; it shall be done.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatever you shall ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive.

Luk 11:9 And I say to you, Ask and it shall be given you. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you.
Luk 11:10 For everyone who asks receives. And he who seeks finds. And to him who knocks it shall be opened.
Luk 11:11 For what father of you, if the son asks for bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a snake for a fish?
Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask for an egg, will he give him a scorpion?
Luk 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?

Joh 15:16 You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it to you.

Jam 4:3 You ask and receive not, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it upon your lusts.

Jam 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says, God resists the proud, but He gives grace to the humble.

Phi 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God.
Phi 4:7 And the peace of God which passes all understanding shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

1Jo 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.

Jam 5:16 Confess faults to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous one avails much.

Just person's intercessions are powerful, and rightly with intercession a pastor can ask for Jesus blood and not be given something dead. Blood is a life concept.

2Ki 2:9 And it happened when they had gone over, Elijah said to Elisha. Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken away from you. And Elisha said, please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.

Psa 92:10 But You shall lift up my horn as the wild ox; and I shall be anointed with fresh oil.

From these past few verses is more grace, more anointing and fresh anointing.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that says to you, Give Me to drink, you would have asked of Him, and He would have given you living water.
Joh 4:11 The woman said to Him, Sir, you have no vessel, and the well is deep. From where then do you have that living water?
Joh 4:12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself, and his children and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, Whoever drinks of this water shall thirst again,
Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst, but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Joh 7:38 He who believes on Me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Water is a life and presence concept and God wants us to have much.

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received freely, freely give.

Rom 8:32 Truly He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

Ask without doubt and receive Jesus blood.

Heb 12:24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Ask and Jesus blood is sprinkled on you or as you intercede as a just man.

Heb 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, so that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Sanctification takes time and Jesus blood.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, having boldness to enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Jesus,

Sin makes us cowardly, we can be justified and sin and fear, but the blood again makes us confident to come to His presence.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Ongoing cleansing. Maybe automatic in true confession. So Jesus blood again, maybe every week or everyday.

1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Jesus blood even again after obedience, ongoing sanctification.

Rev 1:5 even from Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

In Heaven sin is finally altogether gone, only by the blood.

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace (who brought again our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant)
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

There is ongoing salvation in Jesus blood.

Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy of punishment, the one who has trampled the Son of God, and who has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Together are Jesus the Son of God, present in us, Jesus blood and the Spirit of grace, we receive and are sanctified by them.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.

Pure white robes means pure conduct. By Jesus blood.

Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Jesus red robes, eternal blood.

1 Clem 12:7 And moreover they gave her a sign, that she should hang out from her house a scarlet thread, thereby showing beforehand that through the blood of the Lord there shall be redemption unto all them that believe and hope on God.

1 Clem 7:4 Let us fix our eyes on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is unto His father, because being shed for our salvation it won for the whole world the grace of repentance.

In Asking and or agreeing with the faithful with no doubts and right motives, or by the just asking for life for another, whether he or she is in sin or is well obedient, Jesus blood falls and is given freely and is powerful to save, protect, sanctify, heals the spirit, warm, cleanse... For God's glory and our salvation, whether initiating it or sustaining it or if one in Heaven wants clothes dipped in Jesus blood, it is there and is given freely. Speaking excellent things...