Receive Christ The Justified By Works, Or Justified Then Works?

[jmacvols]

yes , and your contention is ?

notice being made free of sin preceedes obedience , it has to , because salvation is of grace not merit.

Rom 6:17,18 shows that first obeyed from the heart, then they were justified.

 

[cygnusx1]

Rom 6:17,18 shows that first obeyed from the heart, then they were justified.

context , regarding Abraham was he justified before or after his works , ie , circumcision ?.... before!

otherwise you end up with justification by works !

(3)What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (4)Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. (5)However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (4:3–5)

 

[jmacvols]

Recognizing the Jesus voice is like a sheep recognizing the shepherd's voice. Only the Holy Spirit can prick a person's heart to cause a person to hear Christ's voice. Jesus said in John 10:14-15 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

THose in Acts 2 were pricked in their hearts, not by some direct, miraculous operation of the Holy Spirit, but by the words Peter spoke.

A spiritually dead person cannot will himself to live anymore than a physically dead person can will himself to come back to life. If the dead person (spiritually or physically) is to come back to life he/she will have to be resurrected by God. In the spiritual realm this means he/she must be born from above. A spiritually dead person is without the Holy Spirit, therefore we do not have the "ability" to get saved on our own. We need the Holy Spirit to prick and quicken us to be alive. Without the Holy Spirit is TOTAL DEPRAVITY". The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved. Through the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of life and light and love. Faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit, without the Holy Spirit, you can't have faith and without the Holy Spirit, you can't be spiritual. If you don't have faith, then you don't have the Holy Spirit. Faith don't come before the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit comes before Faith. Faith will express itself in faith deeds not just words alone. Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Total depravity simply is not true. Gen 4:7, God demonstrates that Cain has within himself the ability to do well or not do well. God even tells Cain to rule over sin. So it does not take some direct action by the Holy SPirit.

 

[jmacvols]

According to Roman Catholics, they mis-interpret James; as a result, works of satisfaction must be performed in order for a person to be justified. sacraments, penance and other works are are necessary in order to receive justification.
Here James speaks that Abraham was justified by works and on the other hand Paul speaks that Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. Now to the young Christian this looks like a contradiction. But we need to remember it is the same Holy Spirit have spoken through Paul and James and God will not contradict his word.
Paul is speaking on the book of Romans to the sinner being justified, by faith. When the sinner realizes who he is in the presence of God, and surrender himself to God he is justified. Paul is dealing with the Jews who were converted into Christianity from the law, where man cannot be justified by obeying the law but by faith. On the other hand if you read the context on James he is speaking to the Christians who were having a loose lifestyle believing they were justified by faith, so now works is not necessary. Paul speaks on justification before God and James speaks on justification before men. The result of our regeneration is good works. If you are truly justified there will be good works. Works are the fruit of the faith. One is justified by living and fruit bearing faith..
As Paul said in Ephesians 2:10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from
yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.



Are you trusting in a righteousness in you that is your performance to God and on the judgment day God will look at your own righteousness that you trusted in to him it looks like a filthy rag. God spoke through Isaiah as he said,
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like
filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6)


http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/justified.htm

I am not Catholic, so this has no bearing on me.


You say James speaks on justification before men.
1)- you cannot prove this if you life depended upon it
2)-James uses Abraham offering Isaac as his example of justification. If you read the account in Gen 22, Abraham did not offer Isaac in a 'public square" for all to witness his faith.

 

[jmacvols]

context , regarding Abraham was he justified before or after his works , ie , circumcision ?.... before!

otherwise you end up with justification by works !

Judiazing teachers were trying to bind circumcision upon the Gentiles. Paul was showing that the "work" of circumcision was not necessary by using Abraham as an example, he was justified before he was circumcised. This has nothing to do with an obedient faith, which Abraham had.

(3)What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Abrahams faith was an obedient one, from when he was first told to leave his house, land and kindred, he obeyed, went out not knowing whither he went, Heb 11:8.

(4)Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. (5)However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (4:3–5)

THe "works" in Rom 4:5 is works of the OT law, specifically circumcision, not works of an obedient faith.

 

[JimfromOhio]

[/COLOR][/I]

THose in Acts 2 were pricked in their hearts, not by some direct, miraculous operation of the Holy Spirit, but by the words Peter spoke.



Total depravity simply is not true. Gen 4:7, God demonstrates that Cain has within himself the ability to do well or not do well. God even tells Cain to rule over sin. So it does not take some direct action by the Holy SPirit.

So... you are basing salvation on man's works on obedience rather than the Holy Spirit by Grace?

No wonder many Christians here are so confused and I am beginning to wonder if their salvation is true. (not attacking anyone but I am clarifying about what people believe in "work" verses "grace").

 

[cygnusx1]

I am not Catholic, so this has no bearing on me.

the part i enlarged does have every bearing on your position.


Are you trusting in a righteousness in you that is your performance to God and on the judgment day God will look at your own righteousness that you trusted in to him it looks like a filthy rag. God spoke through Isaiah as he said,
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like
filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6)

You say James speaks on justification before men.
1)- you cannot prove this if you life depended upon it
2)-James uses Abraham offering Isaac as his example of justification. If you read the account in Gen 22, Abraham did not offer Isaac in a 'public square" for all to witness his faith.

This question of justification is easily resolved if we examine the possible meanings of the term "justify" and apply them within the contexts of the respective passages. Both writers use the same Greek word Dikaioo which has several meanings. The term 'justify' may mean (1) to restore to a state of reconciliation with God those who stand under the judgment of the law or (2) to demonstrate or to vindicate.




Jesus said in luke 7:35


"But wisdom is justified of all her children." (NKJ) What did Jesus mean? Other translations put it this way, "Wisdom is proved right." (NIV); "Wisdom is vindicated." (NRSV). Here Jesus is speaking in practical terms, not theological terms. The plain meaning of his words is that a wise act is demonstrated or vindicated by producing good results.


So how did Paul use the word in Romans 3 and 4? Here there is no dispute. From the context, we see that Paul is clearly writing about justification in the ultimate theological sense. But what about James? If we examine the context of James, we'll see he's dealing with a different perspective than Paul. James wrote in 2:14, "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says (claims) he has faith, (intellectual belief) but does not have works (fruit of the faith)? Can faith save him?" (NKJ)


What James is beginning to discuss here is that true or living faith brings forth a new birth or spiritual transformation in the individual. This new birth is then demonstrated by a change in the believer's life i.e. how he/she acts and treats others. James shows this in verses 15-17, "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warm and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works (of God) is dead [barren]."


What James is writing about here is that it takes more than intellectual knowledge about God to have true saving faith. The demons know who God is yet they continue to refuse to submit to him and continue to serve Satan.



The apostle James' examples are in agreement with Paul's statement in Ep. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."


Those, who try to say that James is teaching that a person becomes righteous in God's eyes through his own works or efforts to fulfill the Law, do not understand how James is using the word "justification." From the surrounding verses, it's obvious that James understood works in only one sense--as the action of faith or the fruit of our spiritual transformation by the Holy Spirit. We need to realize that James also wrote in verse 23 of chapter 2, “And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God.” The OT verse James quoted was from Genesis 15:6 just as Paul had done in Romans 4:3.

http://www.newhope4all.org/info/sharpenSkills/sharpenSkills02.htm

 

[cygnusx1]

The fifth denial was that the ground of justification is Christ's righteousness imputed. The Arminian notion, as we saw, was that faith itself is the ground of justification, being itself righteousness (obedience to the new law) and accepted by God as such. Arminius' formula was that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us not for righteousness, but as a basis on which faith may be imputed to us for righteousness.25 Appeal was made to the phraseology of faith being reckoned for righteousness in Romans 4:3, 5, 9 (cf. 11, 13; all echoing Gen. 15:6); but Paul's insistence that the Christian's righteousness is God's gift (5:15-17), and his emphatic declarations that sinners, though ungodly (4:5; 5:6-8), are justified by faith through Christ's blood irrespective of their own works, make this exegesis really impossible.
The Arminian teaching on justification is in effect, if not in intention, legalistic, turning faith from a means of receiving from God into a work that merits before God. As such, it corresponds in principle with the doctrine of the Council of Trent; at this point its critics were right.

But it, or perhaps we should say, the way of thinking which it represented, had a wide influence, not least in England. Anti-Puritan, anti-Calvinist Anglicans such as Henry Hammond, Herbert Thorndike, and Jeremy Taylor taught justification on the basis of a personal righteousness which God accepts, despite its shortcomings, for Jesus' sake. They spell out the nature of this righteousness in terms of repentance and effort for holiness, and their concept was canonized after the Restoration by the (unhappily) influential Bishop George Bull, who interpreted Paul by James and understood both as teaching justification by works. (The trick was done by defining faith moralistically, as "virtually the whole of evangelical obedience," "all the obedience required by the gospel."26) Teaching of this kind led inevitably to a new legalism of which the key thought was that the exerting of steady moral effort now is the way to salvation hereafter. By Wesley's day the true meaning of justification by faith had been forgotten almost everywhere in the Church of England.

Within Puritanism, too, the Arminian doctrine of justification made inroads. The only Arminian Puritan of ability was John Goodwin, author of Imputatio Fidei (on Romans 4), The Banner of Justification Displayed, An Exposition of Romans 9 and Redemption Redeemed.27 Goodwin was a stormy petrel, and though much noticed, he does not seem to have converted many to his opinions. But Richard Baxter, perhaps the greatest of all Puritan devotional writers, urged the Arminian doctrine of justification (for that is what it was) as part of his Amyraldean understanding of the gospel (we shall glance at Amyraldism shortly), and as a result of a generation's campaigning by him in its interest his position had become influential among the heirs of the Puritans in both England and Scotland by the end of the seventeenth century. In the 1690s it was referred to as "Baxterianism" and (because of the prominence it gave to the "new law" idea) "Neonomianism."28

Baxter's view was rooted in a rather quaint natural theology; with Grotius, he thought Bible teaching about God's rule and kingdom should be assimilated to current political theory, or, as he put it, theology should follow a "political method. " God should be viewed as governor, and the gospel as part of his legal code. Our salvation involves a double justification, one here and a second hereafter, and both justifications require a twofold righteousness, Christ's, the meritorious cause of the enacting of God's new law, and our own, in obeying that new law by genuine faith and repentance. Jesus Christ, who procured the new law for mankind by satisfying the prescriptive and penal demands of the old one, should be thought of as head of God's government, exalted and enthroned to administer the law which his death secured and under it to pardon true believers. Faith is imputed for righteousness here and now because it is real obedience to the gospel, which is God's new law and the new covenant. Faith, however, involves a commitment to keep the moral law which was God's original preceptive code, and every believer, though righteous in terms of the new law, needs pardon every moment for his shortcomings in relation to the old one.


http://www.lgmarshall.org/Arminianism/packer_arminianisms.html

 

[cygnusx1]

Neonomianism cannot avoid this clear fact: God requires perfect obedience in order to be justified on the basis of works. One slip, one act of disobedience, and you've lost it all. For anyone who thinks that salvation is by obedience, you're already lost your salvation irreversibly, because you've disobeyed.

Salvation is not by obedience, but by Grace, through faith. Obedience is evidence of salvation, but not its cause. We walk by faith, not by obedience, and it is by faith that we are cleansed from all sin, and are justified before God. Obedience follows salvation.

The neonomianist will immediately cry, "so you are saying that we can sin with impunity?" Not at all! "How can we who are dead to sin walk any longer therein?" The truly saved do not walk in sin, and do not "sin with impunity". So if you see someone claiming to be a Christian, yet walking in obvious sin, that person's claim of salvation is worthless, and they are most likely not truly saved. True salvation produces works and obedience in accord with salvation.

But obedience, in and of itself, saves no one, else Christ died in vain, and men can be saved by the works of the Law, which works are their own. Paul made it clear that this is impossible.

Good post bro !

if only men would diligently study what God has done , what Christ has achieved for us long before we were saved , even while we were at enmity (not obedience) with Him , then salvation would certainly be seen as from God from start to finish , and man's activity of faith , obedience , love would be seen as a response as an effect to what God has done and is doing.

but alas , men tend to begin with men , and leave God as the second cause , the REACTED upon one.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

From jmacvols
Jesus blood cleanses us, in those verses about walking in the light, it is also written "if we confess our sins". Obedience is clean. It is not the clean who need cleansing. Repentance is not a meritous work. It's turning from all known sin to face Jesus.

Hebrews 5:9 is about ongoing salvation.
The idea being, we were saved, are being saved and will be saved. Sanctification through obedience.

Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16 are after the Gospel passage about conviction. The Pharisee stood at the front of the temple boasting... another man beat his chest at the back and was humble from sin. The latter was more justified.

The two passages, Acts and Mark are about believing and repenting. Baptism is an ongoing thing, that is, happens later, especially in the example of Cornelius. Acts.

Abraham justified by faith, later was circumcision. We are justified by faith, later is baptism. What do you think about circumcision of the heart, what is it?

Receiving the Holy Spirit is essential for sanctification which must be for seeing Heaven finally. Hebrews, "Without Holiness, no one will ever see the Lord."

When in Acts 2 they believe Peter, believe God and don't boast, humble themselves, maybe beating their chests, they surely had some righteousness.

Repentance is not a good work, it is not the fruit of repentance as John the Baptist mentioned nor being forgiven. If forgiven by God, they if then they die, have eternal life.

They are considered right, accepted, just, nothing between them and God hindering walking as friends, when they have repented from all known sin, they are forgiven and justified.

The Holy Spirit gave them faith and convicted them of sin, by faith. He incurs repentance or hardens hearts. As with Pharoah in Genesis. Through events or absence or presence to soften, actualised and localised in them. In Acts 2 they may have the presence for and after repentance, in the latter He comes into them.

Although Joel says the "Spirit falls on all flesh", and Jesus blood can fall on people as well and move them to repent, soften hearts and be effective for salvation from the state of injustice to justified.

Elife3 jmacvols may be saying that if we obey the law of the Spirit, even imperfectly that we will be saved.

The Spirit saves, we hear Him and believe, we by that faith receive. Receive that Spirit, who is Spirit, filling the universe from above time, who uses people. Through Him we continually more fulfill the great commands, we freely believe in and choose to obey from belief and not command, to love God and fellow people.

God's kindness and patience leads to repentance.

God heals and strengthens the hearts and warms them, convicting more and more. Sanctification, without it no one will see God.

We know of more sin and He moves us to repent.

Die along the way and your saved. Not perfect at Christ's return, and see Him, then as in Cor 15:51-52 you will be.

God justifies us. God glorifies us. We cannot do it ourselves. Conviction, repentance, forgiveness, justification, sanctification, glorification.

 

[jmacvols]

So... you are basing salvation on man's works on obedience rather than the Holy Spirit by Grace?

No wonder many Christians here are so confused and I am beginning to wonder if their salvation is true. (not attacking anyone but I am clarifying about what people believe in "work" verses "grace").

In Romans 6:16-18 Paul plainly shows that obedience is what makes one righteous (obedience unto righteousness) and makes one justified, (obeyed from the heart). In Rom 10:1-3 Paul shows obedience (submitting) to God's righteousness (commandments) saves. No one can be saved unless they are righteous and justified before God, and obedience is necessary to become both. Also in Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16, obedience comes before salvation in both verses. So it is evident that obedience to God's will comes before one can be saved.

I gave three verses that shows one must obey first before he can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[nobdysfool]

In Romans 6:16-18 Paul plainly shows that obedience is what makes one righteous (obedience unto righteousness) and makes one justified, (obeyed from the heart). In Rom 10:1-3 Paul shows obedience (submitting) to God's righteousness (commandments) saves. No one can be saved unless they are righteous and justified before God, and obedience is necessary to become both. Also in Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16, obedience comes before salvation in both verses. So it is evident that obedience to God's will comes before one can be saved.

I gave three verses that shows one must obey first before he can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Works. This is neonomianism, pure and simple. Salvation is by Grace through faith, not by obedience through works. Obedience and works are the result of salvation, not its cause.

 

[JimfromOhio]

In Romans 6:16-18 Paul plainly shows that obedience is what makes one righteous (obedience unto righteousness) and makes one justified, (obeyed from the heart). In Rom 10:1-3 Paul shows obedience (submitting) to God's righteousness (commandments) saves. No one can be saved unless they are righteous and justified before God, and obedience is necessary to become both. Also in Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16, obedience comes before salvation in both verses. So it is evident that obedience to God's will comes before one can be saved.

I gave three verses that shows one must obey first before he can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Obedience can only be considered "work" based on the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not based on a person's decision to become a Christian.

 

[cygnusx1]

Works. This is neonomianism, pure and simple. Salvation is by Grace through faith, not by obedience through works. Obedience and works are the result of salvation, not its cause.

man does that need repeating !!!!!

 

[jmacvols]

the part i enlarged does have every bearing on your position.


Are you trusting in a righteousness in you that is your performance to God and on the judgment day God will look at your own righteousness that you trusted in to him it looks like a filthy rag. God spoke through Isaiah as he said,
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like
filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6)

This was said by those who were in iniquity; "because of our iniquities", v7. Verse 5 says God meets or entreats those that "worketh righteouesness"..

This question of justification is easily resolved if we examine the possible meanings of the term "justify" and apply them within the contexts of the respective passages. Both writers use the same Greek word Dikaioo which has several meanings. The term 'justify' may mean (1) to restore to a state of reconciliation with God those who stand under the judgment of the law or (2) to demonstrate or to vindicate.

Jesus said in luke 7:35


"But wisdom is justified of all her children." (NKJ) What did Jesus mean? Other translations put it this way, "Wisdom is proved right." (NIV); "Wisdom is vindicated." (NRSV). Here Jesus is speaking in practical terms, not theological terms. The plain meaning of his words is that a wise act is demonstrated or vindicated by producing good results.


So how did Paul use the word in Romans 3 and 4? Here there is no dispute. From the context, we see that Paul is clearly writing about justification in the ultimate theological sense. But what about James? If we examine the context of James, we'll see he's dealing with a different perspective than Paul. James wrote in 2:14, "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says (claims) he has faith, (intellectual belief) but does not have works (fruit of the faith)? Can faith save him?" (NKJ)

Obvioulsy the answer is "no". A faith without works cannot save for it is dead.

What James is beginning to discuss here is that true or living faith brings forth a new birth or spiritual transformation in the individual.

This "true or living faith" that "brings forth a new birth" must be a faith that includes works. Can a dead faith bring forth a new birth? No, for it is dead and cannot do anything.

This new birth is then demonstrated by a change in the believer's life i.e. how he/she acts and treats others. James shows this in verses 15-17, "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warm and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works (of God) is dead [barren]."

This new birth comes by spirit and water, Jn 3:5, a reference to water baptism. Again, a dead faith cannot bring forth a new birth for it profits nothing. A faith that does not have works cannot be proven to even exist!

What James is writing about here is that it takes more than intellectual knowledge about God to have true saving faith. The demons know who God is yet they continue to refuse to submit to him and continue to serve Satan.

Yes, the devils have "faith alone" for their faith lacks work, hence it cannot save them. As you say "they refuse to submit to Him" i.e., they refuse to obey.

The apostle James' examples are in agreement with Paul's statement in Ep. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Yes, since James said a faith without works is dead, the 'faith' of Eph 2:8 must have inlcuded works for a dead faith cannot save.

Those, who try to say that James is teaching that a person becomes righteous in God's eyes through his own works or efforts to fulfill the Law, do not understand how James is using the word "justification." From the surrounding verses, it's obvious that James understood works in only one sense--as the action of faith or the fruit of our spiritual transformation by the Holy Spirit. We need to realize that James also wrote in verse 23 of chapter 2, “And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God.” The OT verse James quoted was from Genesis 15:6 just as Paul had done in Romans 4:3.

http://www.newhope4all.org/info/sharpenSkills/sharpenSkills02.htm

I never said one becomes righteous by his own works. When one works righteousness, he is doing God's will not his own. Again, John plainly says he that doeth righteousness is righteous. Peter says he that worketh righteousness is accepted with God, Acts 10. So those that do God's will, not their own, are considered righteous before God. Notice the contrast in Rom 10:3. Israel went about to establish their own righteousness, they tried to do their own works. They did not submit (obey) the righteousness (commandments) of God. Notice the two different works here? 1) establish their own righteousness (works of merit) 2) submit to the righteousness of God (obedient faith). As I have said before all works are not alike and Rom 10:3 plainly contrasts the difference between works of merit and an obedient faith.

 

[jmacvols]

the part i enlarged does have every bearing on your position.


Are you trusting in a righteousness in you that is your performance to God and on the judgment day God will look at your own righteousness that you trusted in to him it looks like a filthy rag. God spoke through Isaiah as he said,
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like
filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6)

This was said by those who were in iniquity; "because of our iniquities", v7. Verse 5 says God meets or entreats those that "worketh righteouesness"..

This question of justification is easily resolved if we examine the possible meanings of the term "justify" and apply them within the contexts of the respective passages. Both writers use the same Greek word Dikaioo which has several meanings. The term 'justify' may mean (1) to restore to a state of reconciliation with God those who stand under the judgment of the law or (2) to demonstrate or to vindicate.

Jesus said in luke 7:35


"But wisdom is justified of all her children." (NKJ) What did Jesus mean? Other translations put it this way, "Wisdom is proved right." (NIV); "Wisdom is vindicated." (NRSV). Here Jesus is speaking in practical terms, not theological terms. The plain meaning of his words is that a wise act is demonstrated or vindicated by producing good results.


So how did Paul use the word in Romans 3 and 4? Here there is no dispute. From the context, we see that Paul is clearly writing about justification in the ultimate theological sense. But what about James? If we examine the context of James, we'll see he's dealing with a different perspective than Paul. James wrote in 2:14, "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says (claims) he has faith, (intellectual belief) but does not have works (fruit of the faith)? Can faith save him?" (NKJ)

Obvioulsy the answer is "no". A faith without works cannot save for it is dead.

What James is beginning to discuss here is that true or living faith brings forth a new birth or spiritual transformation in the individual.

This "true or living faith" that "brings forth a new birth" must be a faith that includes works. Can a dead faith bring forth a new birth? No, for it is dead and cannot do anything.

This new birth is then demonstrated by a change in the believer's life i.e. how he/she acts and treats others. James shows this in verses 15-17, "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warm and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works (of God) is dead [barren]."

This new birth comes by spirit and water, Jn 3:5, a reference to water baptism. Again, a dead faith cannot bring forth a new birth for it profits nothing. A faith that does not have works cannot be proven to even exist!

What James is writing about here is that it takes more than intellectual knowledge about God to have true saving faith. The demons know who God is yet they continue to refuse to submit to him and continue to serve Satan.

Yes, the devils have "faith alone" for their faith lacks work, hence it cannot save them. As you say "they refuse to submit to Him" i.e., they refuse to obey.

The apostle James' examples are in agreement with Paul's statement in Ep. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Yes, since James said a faith without works is dead, the 'faith' of Eph 2:8 must have inlcuded works for a dead faith cannot save.

Those, who try to say that James is teaching that a person becomes righteous in God's eyes through his own works or efforts to fulfill the Law, do not understand how James is using the word "justification." From the surrounding verses, it's obvious that James understood works in only one sense--as the action of faith or the fruit of our spiritual transformation by the Holy Spirit. We need to realize that James also wrote in verse 23 of chapter 2, “And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God.” The OT verse James quoted was from Genesis 15:6 just as Paul had done in Romans 4:3.

http://www.newhope4all.org/info/sharpenSkills/sharpenSkills02.htm

I never said one becomes righteous by his own works. When one works righteousness, he is doing God's will not his own. Again, John plainly says he that doeth righteousness is righteous. Peter says he that worketh righteousness is accepted with God, Acts 10. So those that do God's will, not their own, are considered righteous before God. Notice the contrast in Rom 10:3. Israel went about to establish their own righteousness, they tried to do their own works. They did not submit (obey) the righteousness (commandments) of God. Notice the two different works here? 1)establish their own righteousness (works of merit) 2) submit/obey the righteousness of God (obedient faith). As I have said before, all works are not alike and Rom 10:3 shows a plain contrast between works of merit and works of an obedient faith.

 

[jmacvols]

The fifth denial was that the ground of justification is Christ's righteousness imputed. The Arminian notion, as we saw, was that faith itself is the ground of justification, being itself righteousness (obedience to the new law) and accepted by God as such. Arminius' formula was that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us not for righteousness, but as a basis on which faith may be imputed to us for righteousness.25 Appeal was made to the phraseology of faith being reckoned for righteousness in Romans 4:3, 5, 9 (cf. 11, 13; all echoing Gen. 15:6); but Paul's insistence that the Christian's righteousness is God's gift (5:15-17), and his emphatic declarations that sinners, though ungodly (4:5; 5:6-8), are justified by faith through Christ's blood irrespective of their own works, make this exegesis really impossible.
The Arminian teaching on justification is in effect, if not in intention, legalistic, turning faith from a means of receiving from God into a work that merits before God. As such, it corresponds in principle with the doctrine of the Council of Trent; at this point its critics were right.

But it, or perhaps we should say, the way of thinking which it represented, had a wide influence, not least in England. Anti-Puritan, anti-Calvinist Anglicans such as Henry Hammond, Herbert Thorndike, and Jeremy Taylor taught justification on the basis of a personal righteousness which God accepts, despite its shortcomings, for Jesus' sake. They spell out the nature of this righteousness in terms of repentance and effort for holiness, and their concept was canonized after the Restoration by the (unhappily) influential Bishop George Bull, who interpreted Paul by James and understood both as teaching justification by works. (The trick was done by defining faith moralistically, as "virtually the whole of evangelical obedience," "all the obedience required by the gospel."26) Teaching of this kind led inevitably to a new legalism of which the key thought was that the exerting of steady moral effort now is the way to salvation hereafter. By Wesley's day the true meaning of justification by faith had been forgotten almost everywhere in the Church of England.

Within Puritanism, too, the Arminian doctrine of justification made inroads. The only Arminian Puritan of ability was John Goodwin, author of Imputatio Fidei (on Romans 4), The Banner of Justification Displayed, An Exposition of Romans 9 and Redemption Redeemed.27 Goodwin was a stormy petrel, and though much noticed, he does not seem to have converted many to his opinions. But Richard Baxter, perhaps the greatest of all Puritan devotional writers, urged the Arminian doctrine of justification (for that is what it was) as part of his Amyraldean understanding of the gospel (we shall glance at Amyraldism shortly), and as a result of a generation's campaigning by him in its interest his position had become influential among the heirs of the Puritans in both England and Scotland by the end of the seventeenth century. In the 1690s it was referred to as "Baxterianism" and (because of the prominence it gave to the "new law" idea) "Neonomianism."28

Baxter's view was rooted in a rather quaint natural theology; with Grotius, he thought Bible teaching about God's rule and kingdom should be assimilated to current political theory, or, as he put it, theology should follow a "political method. " God should be viewed as governor, and the gospel as part of his legal code. Our salvation involves a double justification, one here and a second hereafter, and both justifications require a twofold righteousness, Christ's, the meritorious cause of the enacting of God's new law, and our own, in obeying that new law by genuine faith and repentance. Jesus Christ, who procured the new law for mankind by satisfying the prescriptive and penal demands of the old one, should be thought of as head of God's government, exalted and enthroned to administer the law which his death secured and under it to pardon true believers. Faith is imputed for righteousness here and now because it is real obedience to the gospel, which is God's new law and the new covenant. Faith, however, involves a commitment to keep the moral law which was God's original preceptive code, and every believer, though righteous in terms of the new law, needs pardon every moment for his shortcomings in relation to the old one.


http://www.lgmarshall.org/Arminianism/packer_arminianisms.html

There is no such thing as "imputed righteousness". Righteousness is a trait of the individual. THose that doeth righteousness is righteous. So one can only be righteous before God by obedience to His will. No way around it, obedience makes one righteous and therefore obedience saves, Heb 5:9.

 

[jmacvols]

From jmacvols
Jesus blood cleanses us, in those verses about walking in the light, it is also written "if we confess our sins". Obedience is clean. It is not the clean who need cleansing. Repentance is not a meritous work. It's turning from all known sin to face Jesus.

"Walking" and 'confessing' are obedient works, as is repentance, none are works of merit. As you say, repentance requires a "turning" which is obedience. AS long as one walks (obeys) he will be clean.

Hebrews 5:9 is about ongoing salvation.
The idea being, we were saved, are being saved and will be saved. Sanctification through obedience.

Heb 5:9 shows that salvation belongs only to those that obey Christ.

Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16 are after the Gospel passage about conviction. The Pharisee stood at the front of the temple boasting... another man beat his chest at the back and was humble from sin. The latter was more justified.

The two passages, Acts and Mark are about believing and repenting. Baptism is an ongoing thing, that is, happens later, especially in the example of Cornelius. Acts.

My point about these two passages is that they both put obedience before salvation, not after. Therefore one must obey in order to be saved. One is not saved first and obeys later for this perverts the verses.

Abraham justified by faith, later was circumcision. We are justified by faith, later is baptism. What do you think about circumcision of the heart, what is it?

Abraham had an obedient faith, thus he was justified, he did not have "faith only" per James 2. We are justified by 'faith, not by "faith alone" for it is dead and cannot do anything.
Rom 2:29 GOd is showing that His chosen "Jews" of today are the ones that have a circumcision of the heart, not a fleshly one. This includes Gentiles as Paul shows.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is essential for sanctification which must be for seeing Heaven finally. Hebrews, "Without Holiness, no one will ever see the Lord."

When in Acts 2 they believe Peter, believe God and don't boast, humble themselves, maybe beating their chests, they surely had some righteousness.

You say receiving the Holy Spirit is essential for sanctification. My point here is that one does not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until they first obey, Acts 2:38; 5:32. So again, obedience comes before salvation, not after.

Repentance is not a good work, it is not the fruit of repentance as John the Baptist mentioned nor being forgiven. If forgiven by God, they if then they die, have eternal life.

They are considered right, accepted, just, nothing between them and God hindering walking as friends, when they have repented from all known sin, they are forgiven and justified.

The Holy Spirit gave them faith and convicted them of sin, by faith. He incurs repentance or hardens hearts. As with Pharoah in Genesis. Through events or absence or presence to soften, actualised and localised in them. In Acts 2 they may have the presence for and after repentance, in the latter He comes into them.

Repentance is not just a good work, it is a command of God, Acts 2:38. Since it is commanded it is not optional. So when one repents he is obeying this command. In Acts 2:38 the command to repent and be baptized comes before one can recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You say the holy Spirit gave them faith. Yet the bible says faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17, so it does not come by some direct miraculousmeans of the Holy SPirit.

Although Joel says the "Spirit falls on all flesh", and Jesus blood can fall on people as well and move them to repent, soften hearts and be effective for salvation from the state of injustice to justified.

In Rev 1:5 John said Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood. How/when does this happen?

 

[jmacvols]

Works. This is neonomianism, pure and simple. Salvation is by Grace through faith, not by obedience through works.

I gave book, chapter and verse to prove what I said, so it is not 'neonomianism" it is biblical. Since you chose not to refute it but chose to just falsely label me, it can then be considered "irrefutable biblical" proof.

Obedience and works are the result of salvation, not its cause

It's highly noticeable that you do not give a book, chapter, verse to prove what you say. What is the order of Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16?

 

[nobdysfool]

I gave book, chapter and verse to prove what I said, so it is not 'neonomianism" it is biblical. Since you chose not to refute it but chose to just falsely label me, it can then be considered "irrefutable biblical" proof.

LOL! You can call the sky pink, if you want, but that doesn't make it so.

It's highly noticeable that you do not give a book, chapter, verse to prove what you say. What is the order of Acts 2:38 and Mk 16:16?

And if I did, you would not have received it. Pearls, you know....

And it's rather comical that you look for a sequential 1-2-3 order in every verse you read, and try to find one, no matter what. Just because somethings are spoken of in scripture, one after the other, doesn't necessarily mean that a doctrinal order is being given. Nor is every verse a doctrinal statement applicable to multiple doctrines. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar....

No, I am quite correct in calling your beliefs Neonomianism. obedience and works are result of Salvation, not the cause of Salvation. Salvation is by Grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God, and not of works lest any man should boast.. QED