Rebellious Women

[mkgal1]

If the man is not showing his wife lots of love...there's your starting point.
If the woman is not showing respect to her husband.... there's your starting point.

Oh no! Here we go with the whole love & respect trash :/

 

[JacksBratt]

Gentleness (being soft, tender) caring and love are not feminine virtues. Gentleness, caring and love are unisex virtues. Gentleness, caring and love are part of the Christian lifestyle regardless of gender.

The problem with promoting unisex virtues as uniquely or primarily feminine is that it causes a number of men to neglect their duty to cultivate and exercise gentleness, caring and love because they fear becoming feminine and effeminate. That's counterproductive because gentleness, caring and love are part of the Christian lifestyle. Men AND women are instructed to cultivate them in various Bible verses.
After all, Jesus (the ultimate man) is gentle and loving.


I have absolutely no doubt that women are wired to be motherly, soft, caring, loving, nurturing, tender, gentle, sympathetic (compassionate) because that's what it means to be made in the image of God. God is all those things.

However, with the exception of motherly (because men can't birth babies) men are also wired to be soft, caring, loving, nurturing, tender, gentle, sympathetic (compassionate) because that's God's character, and men are made in God's image.

Yes, these are all fully unisex characteristics and we should strive to emulate them and be more like Christ. But, Tell me that the men in your neighborhood are your first choice to leave a new born baby with.... or is it the women?
Women are superior in these features. Men are "if that won't fix it, you need a bigger hammer" in a nurturing way. LOL

 

[mkgal1]

It is a known fact that men have an index finger that is markedly shorter than their ring finger while women's ring finger and index finger are the same length. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. It's not shoving you into a box. It's recognizing that that's the box you originally came from before you grew into the character you are now.

The discussion wasn't about physical differences, though---it was brought up about logic and emotions. What use is it to remark on finger length? How does that factor into relationships?

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, these are all fully unisex characteristics and we should strive to emulate them and be more like Christ. But, Tell me that the men in your neighborhood are your first choice to leave a new born baby with.... or is it the women?
Women are superior in these features. Men are "if that won't fix it, you need a bigger hammer" in a nurturing way. LOL

That's mostly due to socialization (and that's changing quickly).

For the people that don't fit into those boxes (like women that are more like Mommy Dearest or Casey Anthony....and men that can't use a hammer to save their life---that becomes a problem to believe those things).

 

[JacksBratt]

Oh no! Here we go with the whole love & respect trash :/

Yes, of course it is trash :/ it's right there in God's book of trash chapter 5.....

Really? You are calling this scripture, the word of the living God......trash?
No, no. This is God's manual for how a man can show his wife the best thing she is in need of and the woman can give the man the thing that he is most thirsty for.

Sorry, this is not my opinion....................it's God's.

Ephesians 5:25King James Version (KJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ephesians 5:33
However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

 

[JacksBratt]

The discussion wasn't about physical differences, though---it was brought up about logic and emotions. What use is it to remark on finger length? How does that factor into relationships?

Simply shows that even from our physical frame, we are different creatures. Human but different from the core. Equal but different. Necessary to the family unit but with different basic gifts and talents.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, of course it is trash :/ it's right there in God's book of trash chapter 5...

Plucked right out of chapter 5.....yes.

This is also in "God's book" = "There is no God" in Psalm 14.

 

[JacksBratt]

That's mostly due to socialization (and that's changing quickly).

For the people that don't fit into those boxes (like women that are more like Mommy Dearest or Casey Anthony....and men that can't use a hammer to save their life---that becomes a problem to believe those things).

I think you will see it more and more of a problem when you try to socialize the roles away from the pattern that God set for us.

 

[mkgal1]

Simply shows that even from our physical frame, we are different creatures. Human but different from the core. Equal but different. Necessary to the family unit but with different basic gifts and talents.

No one is arguing that people are all the same (men aren't like other men....women aren't like other women.....I am obviously not like my husband physically). None of that is the argument.

Equal but different has been used for all sorts of inequalities. It's a recycled argument.

 

[JacksBratt]

Plucked right out of chapter 5.....yes.

This is also in "God's book" = "There is no God" in Psalm 14.

You forgot that the fool said this. Clipping a scripture can say a lot of things. The scripture I used, even when read in it's entirety will not change the meaning.

I'm surprised to get this response from a Christian.

 

[ValleyGal]

I agree that there is a lot of social programming and social expectation of kids these days. Thing is, if you are pushing a woman to be more like God meant a man to be and pushing men to be more like a woman, does this not cause confusion for both?

I don't think boys and girls are pushed to be like each other so much as we are dropping the social stigma of the boy code and the little girl's club. I wonder how it is that some people seem to think that God has a specific way for men and women to be, when he has clearly stated there is no male or female in his kingdom. He has given men and women both the same responsibilities and the same expectations. In fact, I think that God "means" for a man to be himself and a woman to be herself, and to use their God-given talents and characteristics and qualities for God's purpose, no matter what it is - and to do so in any and all cultures throughout time - even if that culture is matriarchal rather than patriarchal.

Think about it, a man is now uncertain of whether to ask a woman if she would like his seat if he was to give it to her. Or, hold the door open for her and letting her go ahead of him..... Some women would graciously accept and others would give a lecture about social equality...

My mom used to joke about chivalry not being dead when she saw a man doing something gentlemanly. Now it seems like women themselves want to kill it and bury it deep.

Well, in all honesty, I expect younger people to hold the door open for older people, male or female. I also expect people to hold doors open for other people - male or female. I have held doors open for men, women, elderly, disabled, young moms, pregnant ladies, and able-bodied men. Seriously, common courtesy applies both ways.

You said "men are trying to limit our potential for being just as great as men are". Do you really mean this? This statement could be taken as to mean that women are greater than men. I don't recall any of my posts suggesting that men or women are in any way greater or lesser than one another in importance. I just said that wives need to submit to the leadership of their husband. This still may in fact leave the man pretty much useless at many things around the house, or at least like a fish out of water when his wife takes off to her sisters for a week..

I do believe that women have traditionally been oppressed and absolutely limited. I think that men have been in authority and "ruling over" woman as per the curse, since the fall. Men have written policies for women, not understanding how women are affected by those policies, etc. It is only recently that women are again rising to power in politics (I say "again" because back in the old days of Judges, God himself appointed the judges, and he appointed Deborah, so they must have had shared power at some point in history), and they are finally starting to make a dent in the systemic oppression of women.

I don't believe that men are called to "lead" their wives. As I said before, there are too many men who do not have good leadership skills or aptitude, which leaves too many women without a "leader" husband. Women are called to be the "head" - take a look at how Jesus is the head of the church: service, self-sacrifice, submission, humility, giving up his authority for her sake, and initiating love and a reconciled relationship. That is what being the head means....it is not about leadership at all.

Women and men are equal. Equal but different and with different gifts.

Equal. Period. After all, there are many, many women with leadership capabilities and there are many, many men who do not have leadership capabilities. Men can do almost everything women can do, and women can do everything a man can do.

In my house the chores are shared. My wife could go for a month and the kids would be clean with clean folded laundry, fed with good meals, teeth brushed, etc. The lawn would be cut, cars maintained, snow shoveled, house vacuumed, groceries done, dishes all clean and put away and I would still be able to catch the game on tv.
My wife is strong willed and she has, by accident, trained me to be a perfectly self sufficient single dad if it ever came to that.

Good! That is how I spent the first 18 years of my son's life. I did it all...all the time, never mind for a month while a husband gave me a break.

I find none of these "jobs" that women associate as "women's work" demeaning or taking away my manhood. This is why I find it hard to understand how women are insulted when you tell them the God wired them to be the care giver and home keeper.... that's a huge job and very important.

I do not find these jobs demeaning. I do not feel insulted that I do them, etc. I am insulted when men think that is our "job" and all we are good at, to the exclusion of working full time in any job we want outside the home, and that we have to do these things because we are somehow hardwired for them and for nothing or little else. I am very proud of the job I've done in my home, raising my child alone, and I am equally proud of being a homeowner and landlord while raising my family and also working full time in a physically demanding job - then putting myself through college in my forties and furthering my career even now. I find my work in and out of the home equally satisfying, equally fulfilling, and equally important in God's kingdom.

In my fathers day he did not cook, clean, shop, do laundry, do dishes...none of it. AND my mother was proud to be the homemaker as dad kept the maintenance of the house and cars up to snuff and yard work done while being the main bread winner. That was when you could live well on one income.

Most people can't live on one income anymore. It sounds like your family of origin was around the 50's and 60's, and maybe even the early 70's. This was the post-war idolizing of husbands as heroes of war when they returned - and women were expected to cater to their heroes. It's baby boom time hitting their prime. That whole June Cleaver ideology was a cultural anomaly, not some expectation of God.

Women used to be proud to be a woman. Now, society tells them that that is sexist and condescending. Satan's lie.
Being a woman with classic or traditional womanly traits should never be looked upon as demeaning. Anymore than a man having masculine qualitative should be considered overpowering, bullying or dictatorial.
This was not God's plan. We, men and women, were meant to compliment one another.
Now, kids don't know what in the world their role is anymore.

Society does not tell women that being a woman is sexist and condescending. What is sexist and condescending is the men who try to force us all to be June Cleaver, and twist the Bible to justify this oppression.

I have no problem when women choose this for themselves, but when it is pushed on us against our will and using the Bible to justify this oppression.

I agree - husbands and wives should complement each other, and this is reflected in the verse to the Corinthians where it says not to be unequally yoked, and this is actually backed up by contemporary marriage studies.

Now on to a comment you made to another poster about what to look for in counselling a couple. The most effective couples therapy is the Gottman method. You can read about his principles, based on 4 decades of research, in his book "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work." The therapy is based largely on this, so these are the kinds of things to look for in counselling. Interestingly, one of the principles is mutual influence and shared power. Dr. Gottman is a practicing Jew.

Kids? I teach a parenting course, and kids need to be raised according to the verse that says "train a child in the way he should go and in the end he will not depart from it." When you know your child well enough to understand their temperament, personality, aptitude, strengths, you can nurture those important parts of who they are. This develops confidence in themselves, so they are able to make life decisions that are best for them. This principle applies to boys and girls. If a girl is really good at math, she is defying what "research" showed 40 years ago (that boys are better at math). But if you change the teaching style, the tables turn, and girls are just as good, or better, than boys at math. It's like that with cooking, too.... home economics were a girl thing 40 years ago, but today there are more male chefs than female, and there are just as many men in textiles, from fabric designers, to tailors, to fashion designers. If a boy likes dolls, encourage him with them because he might be the next great kindergarten teacher or daycare provider (think of movies like Kindergarten Cop and Daddy Daycare).

Kids will grow up knowing their role when their parents (or parent) know them well enough to help them develop whatever comes natural, no matter what it is.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, of course it is trash :/ it's right there in God's book of trash chapter 5.....

Really? You are calling this scripture, the word of the living God......trash?
No, no. This is God's manual for how a man can show his wife the best thing she is in need of and the woman can give the man the thing that he is most thirsty for.

Sorry, this is not my opinion....................it's God's.

Ephesians 5:25King James Version (KJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ephesians 5:33
However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

No.....I'm not calling Scripture trash---I'm called Eggerich's use of Scripture trash.

Appealing to God's authority is fallacious. You only know your understanding of His word.....and don't know (without certainty) what His opinion actually is (any more than I do).

What's love without respect, anyway? As far as I'm concerned.....the Bible speaks of relational love to only be tied in with respect. IOW.....love IS respect/honor...they aren't separate.

Nate Sparks spent a great deal of time and attention to the book. For anyone that's interested, here is what he found:

I want to begin by making something abundantly clear. Any book which bases its entire thesis on a single verse of Scripture is guaranteed to reflect precisely how far the author is willing to go to promote their personal agenda far more than their desire to present a carefully formulated study of Scripture. Yet, despite the deeply biased agenda Eggerichs is trying to advance, he still claims to be simply offering the “clear” teaching of Scripture. If he is to be believed, he has unlocked the entirety of God’s plan for marriage by taking a single verse of Scripture in the most surface level, and literal, way possible.

This is called proof-texting. Essentially, proof-texting occurs when a person uses a verse, or verses, of Scripture entirely out of context in order to promote that agenda they believe is correct. It is the Scriptural equivalent of begging the question, assuming one’s premise to be true and only considering evidence that supports the premise and/or manipulating existing evidence to ensure one’s premise remains unquestioned.

The reality is, Eggerichs’ argument is so woefully myopic and entirely disingenuous that it collapses under the weight of not only the Scriptures themselves, but of his own rhetoric regarding how to interpret them.~https://natesparks130.com/2016/05/29/love-respect-and-proof-texts/

 

[All4Christ]

God didn't program us like a computer. We are not robots and certainly have free will. But we do have fundamentally different make ups. Simply look at your hand. Put all you fingers together like a you were going to slap a bug on the wall. Now, look at the length of your individual fingers in relation to the others. It is a known fact that men have an index finger that is markedly shorter than their ring finger while women's ring finger and index finger are the same length. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. It's not shoving you into a box. It's recognizing that that's the box you originally came from before you grew into the character you are now.

Well, God made my index finger markedly shorter than my ring finger. I guess I don't fit the box for women's hands, but rather have the shape of a male's hand! My hand is rather small, but the index finger is quite shorter than the ring finger.

 

[minique]

Nate Sparks spent a great deal of time and attention to the book. For anyone that's interested, here is what he found:

I read some of Spark's article when he first posted it. It's a bit lengthy, so I didn't read it all, but he raises some good points.

 

[mkgal1]

Well, God made my index finger markedly shorter than my ring finger. I guess I don't fit the box for women's hands, but rather have the shape of a male's hand! My hand is rather small, but the index finger is quite shorter than the ring finger.

Hey! Me too. I need a manicure (I was moving patio furniture today) ....but maybe I'll try to take a picture of mine. I hadn't even checked (b/c I didn't see what difference it makes in relationships).

 

[Paidiske]

Of course you are going to listen to them and see what's going on for them. Chances are...

If the man is not showing his wife lots of love...there's your starting point.
If the woman is not showing respect to her husband.... there's your starting point.

Do you know what I've actually found to be the biggest issue I see in my work with couples? It's not a lack of showing love or respect at all. It's actually to do with different family backgrounds, cultures and styles.

The typical example is where one partner is upset because the other isn't repeating the patterns of life (whether it's sharing tasks or leadership or conflict resolution or how the household is set up or whatever) that the first person grew up with. So many people seem to expect their wife to be a younger version of their mother, or their husband to be a younger version of their father.

So we have to spend a lot of time unpacking their expectations, what shaped them and where they came from, and getting them to realise that their marriage is not a replica of their parents', but is their own, shaped by their own two unique personalities, gifts, enthusiasms, etc, and they have to learn to work together with what they have, not try to repeat what they saw growing up.

It can be time consuming, but when they "get it" and really start to work together instead of being upset that their spouse isn't one of their parents, it's very rewarding.

I think it is possibly true that, on average, men and women will place different priorities on different things in a marriage. (And I think for men it is quite likely not to be respect but sex, quite frankly, but that's a whole 'nother discussion). But none of that really matters because none of us is the "average" man or woman and there's no such thing as the "average" marriage. Each of us has to work with the reality of our own real partners and relationships.

 

[mkgal1]

But we do have fundamentally different make ups. Simply look at your hand. Put all you fingers together like a you were going to slap a bug on the wall. Now, look at the length of your individual fingers in relation to the others. It is a known fact that men have an index finger that is markedly shorter than their ring finger while women's ring finger and index finger are the same length. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. It's not shoving you into a box. It's recognizing that that's the box you originally came from before you grew into the character you are now.

I've not found anything that confirms this yet, but I did find this about what it means for men's fingers to be of different length:

 

[Runswithdogs]

Simply look at your hand. Put all you fingers together like a you were going to slap a bug on the wall. Now, look at the length of your individual fingers in relation to the others. It is a known fact that men have an index finger that is markedly shorter than their ring finger while women's ring finger and index finger are the same length. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. It's not shoving you into a box. It's recognizing that that's the box you originally came from before you grew into the character you are now.

OH thanks, You just called me a man based on my finger length ...

My husbands gonna be really upset to hear that....

 

[greenguzzi]

No, no. This is God's manual for how a man can show his wife the best thing she is in need of and the woman can give the man the thing that he is most thirsty for.

Nah, it's not. Maybe you are thinking of this one...

 

[greenguzzi]

The scripture I used, even when read in it's entirety will not change the meaning.

Possibly not. But reading it in full context - and minus the context you brought with you - probably will.