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There are probably NO victimless sins. But I have heard people who’ve done terrible things to others actually say they didn’t hurt anyone else because the victims forget. No joke, this is what they said they told themselves for years. So I seriously doubt no one on earth is a victim of said poster’s sins.Since @Lifelong_sinner described the act as a victimless crime, what the act does(?) to other people is a very broad statement. It doesn’t do anything to anyone if the initial post is to be believed, unless posters want to insist he’s harming God or triggering them by the mere prospect of his secret sins.
If anything, since @Lifelong_sinner describes the action as a danger to his own health, he’s the real victim here. The wound is spiritual and self inflicted.
There are probably NO victimless sins.
Does what your sins do to other people bother you? Just wondering..
But I have heard people who’ve done terrible things to others actually say they didn’t hurt anyone else because the victims forget.
I don’t know. I doubt my salvation very often.
I do see fruits of the Spirit in my life but for all I know they may be false fruits.
I, much like @Lifelong_sinner, haven’t really experienced the emotion of love for God, or at least not much of it.
This is very encouraging. However, I’m not sure I understand what you mean by our works being a “proactive approach?”
The simplest, best remedy for this doubt is to love God.
Oh? Like what, exactly?
Love isn't, I believe, an emotion. At its core, love is desire. The Psalmist draws this out:
Psalm 42:1-2
1 As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for You, O God.
2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God?
Psalm 63:1
1 O God, You are my God; I shall seek You earnestly; My soul thirsts for You, my flesh yearns for You, In a dry and weary land where there is no water.
Psalm 84:2
2 My soul longed and even yearned for the courts of the LORD; My heart and my flesh sing for joy to the living God.
I used to practice and teach a martial art. I did so for nearly thirty years, until my spine starting falling apart. Anyway, over the years I trained, I broke teeth, dislocated fingers and toes, tore various tendons, endured bloody noses and bruises galore. The training was exhausting, painful and at times, and pretty expensive. But, for many years, I invested more time, energy and money in my training than in anything else in my life.
One day, my sister remarked to me, "You're very disciplined. You've been training day after day, year after year for decades! How are you so disciplined?" I laughed and explained to her that discipline had nothing, really, to do with why I trained. Oh, there was the odd day I was feeling tired, or sick, or was missing out on an important family event to train where I required a certain amount of determination in order to do so. But always, fueling that determination was the real reason I trained so hard for so long: I loved the martial art.
Do I mean when I say I loved the art that I cried tears of joy every time I thought about it? No. In fact, there hasn't been a single time thinking, or talking about, or doing the martial art where I was moved to tears or high emotion (except when I got injured). But I still loved the art. You could tell that I did, not by the depth of my emotion about it, but by the level of investment and commitment to the martial art that I had. It wasn't weepiness that revealed my love of the art, but continuing in it despite the constantly-mounting cost of doing so, year after year. And I invested as I did because I desired greatly to train in the martial art.
I had such desire long before I actually began to train. Many, many moons ago, as an eight-year-old, I watched David Carradine in the t.v. series "Kung Fu" and thought to myself, "I want to do that! I want to be a martial artist!" The desire never left me. I bought books about the martial arts and in my teens I built a rudimentary training area to practice kicking and punching and the kata I saw in the books I'd purchased. When I was old enough (in my early twenties), I took up martial training (though, not in a Chinese martial art). It was glorious! I couldn't get enough of training! It was so satisfying, so gratifying, a joy to do. It was also difficult, very confusing at first, and humiliating, but training was always fundamentally enjoyable, always thoroughly fulfilling my desire to be a martial artist.
I look at my experience as a martial artist and see, among other things, an important lesson in love. Like you, I used to equate love with an emotion. Later on in my life as a Christian, I equated it with obedience to God. But as I've come to see, these are both the by-products of love, they are prompted by love, but they aren't love itself. Love is, at bottom, strong desire. This was the case with my love for the martial arts. My love wasn't first and foremost an emotion, it was a strong, abiding desire; my love of martial training wasn't ever evidenced by joyful tears and intense feelings but by an unwavering investment in training. It wasn't, after all, emotions, however powerful, that would (or could) satisfy my desire for martial arts skills. No, I had to actually train, to do the things necessary to obtaining the skills of a martial artist, in order to fulfill my desire.
In English we talk of love in such an imprecise, multi-faceted, terminologically-overlapping way that it can get quite difficult to pin down what one means by "love." When I say I love chocolate, I don't mean I love it in the way I love my wife; when I say I love a sunset, I don't mean I love it like I do my siblings or parents. Sex and lust are often talked about in terms of love; addiction is sometimes described in terms of love, as well. But what the Bible means by love of God is, I believe, what the Psalmist wrote of above: a deep longing, a yearning, a thirst, for God.
Love for God, then, is a desire to know Him, to fellowship with Him, to be relationally-connected to Him. As this desire is pursued and satisfied by coming into relationship with God through Jesus Christ, it will produce emotions of joy, and gratefulness, and contentment; it will prompt happy obedience to God; it may even provoke a few tears of deep affection now and then. But before all of this, there must be the desire for God which drives us into relationship with Him and is the ground out of which all the emotions and behaviour so closely associated with loving God arise.
So, after this long-winded preamble, let me ask you: Do you want God? Do you want to know Him and to walk every day in intimate communion with Him? Do you have a thirst for God? Not, do you feel some strong emotion for Him, but, rather, do you want Him, do you have a heart's yearning to be connected to Him? So long as you do, I believe you can say that you love God.
We are made by God to be powerfully moved and shaped by our desires. Our desires are perhaps the most fundamental ordering factor of our lives. We do what we want, what we desire to do. And so, God deals with us on this level, directing us to desire Him. Why should we, though? If you were asked why someone should desire God, what would you say?
My desires are in the wrong places. Does this mean I’m not saved?
I've been a Christian for 3 and a half years, and for the first time, I'm starting to really wrestle with the idea of a loving God sending people to Hell. Throughout my life as a Christian, I've never questioned it. I've always thought, "Of course it's fair that God sends non-Christians to Hell! Their sins aren't paid for, so they have to take the punishment of their sins upon themselves." I never really allowed myself to think about the concept of eternal suffering too hard, because I was afraid that if I started questioning the fairness of this, I would end up leaving the faith. But recently I've started asking questions I've never let myself ask before, like: "Why do the damned suffer eternal punishment for temporal sins?" "If God knew the vast majority of people would end up in unbearable agony for all eternity, why did he ever create humankind?" "Why can't God just destroy the wicked on Judgement Day? Why keep them around for the sole purpose of torturing them?"
Today I was reading an article about the physical suffering of Jesus on the Cross, and couldn't help but think to myself, "the people in Hell will suffer just as much, if not more, than this. And while Jesus' physical torture lasted less than 24 hours, their torture will never end." I immediately tried to push this blasphemous thought out of my head, but it still lingers.
Now that I'm having these questions, it's getting much harder to walk with the Lord like I used to. It's very difficult to feel affection for God when I remember that He's going to sentence the vast majority of humanity to an eternity of unimaginable torture, with no hope of relief. I mean, how does this knowledge not drive us all insane? I can't even walk around Walmart anymore without constantly thinking to myself, "Most of the people in this store will spend eternity in Hell." I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm going crazy.
I know that no matter what my feelings tell me, my God is just and merciful. I understand that any punishment God hands out is perfectly fair. I know that He is not a sadistic monster, no matter how strongly I feel otherwise. So please do not read this post as me accusing God of those things, because I'm not. I just need to figure out how to reconcile my belief that God is good with my belief that God condemns 99% of people to eternal, conscious torment.
Sorry if this post is all jumbled or makes no sense, I'm really not in the right mental state to be forming coherent thoughts right now.
Yes, Eternal Conscious Torment is unbiblical. I used to believe in it at one time, but the more I truly studied the Scriptures on this topic, the more I discovered it was not biblical.
Kudos to you for changing positions on a biblical topic, it’s normally very hard for people.
1 John chapter 2 verse 2
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Well, you might want to actually read the four gospels again, etc...
Jesus mentions people going to a hell more than he mentions people going to a heaven, etc, and that is just a "fact", etc...
There are also other words He uses for this hell and to describe this hell also, etc...
And it's mentioned more than heaven, etc...
God Bless!
-My sheep hear my voice, they follow me, I've come to lay down my life for my sheep.
Not all are Christ Sheep, and most do not follow, or hear his voice.
Listen, you can not conceptually use Bible Verse's and draw conclusion'ls that contradict other Bible Verse's.
from your stance on the elect, your obviously a calvanist.
Calvinism however states that people are totally depraved. The Bible in no way insinuates of suggests they are. Total depravity is beyond God's saving grace. The entire reason Yahweh placed an angel to guard the tree of eternal life was so that He could condemn sin in the flesh, and that people would not suffer the second death.
The entirety of The Bible Read's as one long explanation, starting with Abraham of a Saviour who would take away the sins of the world. In contrast to calvini, The Basis God is States to have died for all and says Preach The Gospel to All of Creation determines The Invitation is to all who are not condemned.
Pre-destinatiom Evalautes that God draws people to himself, The Elect, whom he foreknew (those God Knew Inside and out before Creation.) That He Also Called and Also Justified. stop scaring the guy.
calvinism is a superficial superiority doctrine, that was created by satan to make people feel special. God weighed ever person before The Creation, the turnout is more of people just living out what God knew they would. If he's sinning it doesn't mean he's condemned. He obviously is acknowledging it, he's probably Just burned out because he's trusting in what he can do rather than Trusting In Jesus Work. If he does that, he wontl't be so afraid
-This is my blood in the new and everlasting covenant, which will be poored out for you and for "MANY" for the forgiveness of sins.
For many...but not all. Crist sacrifice, his spilled blood on the cross, though sufficient for the sins of the whole world, is applied in the case of the elect...only, since the non elect are outside of Gods saving grace it is incomprehensible that Christ would have died for them.
-Who's names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.
Salvation is 100% Gods work, the individuals roll is completely passive.
In the case of the elect, Gods grace is irresistible, they will be brought to a saving faith at some point by hearing the Gospel, as God works faith in their heart, which will lead to conviction of sins, repentence, and forgiveness.
All those elected, for whom Christ died for, who have now a saving faith will persevere until the end and be saved.
Humanity has a very sick nature, sinful, greedy, envious, we still kill each over petty jealousy...we never take responsibility for the things we have done, and we teach all of our sins to our children.
If given a choice, it's likely no one would choose Jesus Christ, and he would have died for nothing. But, we have a gracious God who has chosen a remnant to be saved by his grace, for Christs sake through faith.
That being said, I understand the arguments made for decision theology as well, this controversy has it's roots (not deep) in some of the writings of St. Augustine, all the way through at least Martin Luther.
In the end though, it's Gods grace for Christ sake through faith that saves. We can debate Gods choice vs our choice all we want, but in the end it's the same...some make it, most don't.
The entirety of The Bible Read's as one long explanation, starting with Abraham of a Saviour who would take away the sins of the world. In contrast to calvini, The Basis God is States to have died for all and says Preach The Gospel to All of Creation determines The Invitation is to all who are not condemned.-My sheep hear my voice, they follow me, I've come to lay down my life for my sheep.
Not all are Christ Sheep, and most do not follow, or hear his voice.
-This is my blood in the new and everlasting covenant, which will be poored out for you and for "MANY" for the forgiveness of sins.
For many...but not all. Crist sacrifice, his spilled blood on the cross, though sufficient for the sins of the whole world, is applied in the case of the elect...only, since the non elect are outside of Gods saving grace it is incomprehensible that Christ would have died for them.
-Who's names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.
Salvation is 100% Gods work, the individuals roll is completely passive.
In the case of the elect, Gods grace is irresistible, they will be brought to a saving faith at some point by hearing the Gospel, as God works faith in their heart, which will lead to conviction of sins, repentence, and forgiveness.
All those elected, for whom Christ died for, who have now a saving faith will persevere until the end and be saved.
Humanity has a very sick nature, sinful, greedy, envious, we still kill each over petty jealousy...we never take responsibility for the things we have done, and we teach all of our sins to our children.
If given a choice, it's likely no one would choose Jesus Christ, and he would have died for nothing. But, we have a gracious God who has chosen a remnant to be saved by his grace, for Christs sake through faith.
That being said, I understand the arguments made for decision theology as well, this controversy has it's roots (not deep) in some of the writings of St. Augustine, all the way through at least Martin Luther.
In the end though, it's Gods grace for Christ sake through faith that saves. We can debate Gods choice vs our choice all we want, but in the end it's the same...some make it, most don't.
I know that no matter what my feelings tell me, my God is just and merciful. I understand that any punishment God hands out is perfectly fair. I know that He is not a sadistic monster, no matter how strongly I feel otherwise. So please do not read this post as me accusing God of those things, because I'm not. I just need to figure out how to reconcile my belief that God is good with my belief that God condemns 99% of people to eternal, conscious torment.
Sorry if this post is all jumbled or makes no sense, I'm really not in the right mental state to be forming coherent thoughts right now.
The soul is not immortal. The soul needs God in order to exist.
I've about given up on trying to tell or show people the truth, etc, the truth that will set them free, etc, and think I'm just going to try to go about just loving them only, etc, even though it breaks my heart all of time because they are the source and cause of their own misery, etc, but think I am just going to try and just love them anyway, and leave off trying to show them, or tell them, or teach them the truth that would set them free, etc...People want to hear what their itching ears want to hear. This is just more evidence of our fallen nature...
So, maybe I should just try to love them, and love on them, etc, "do love", etc, "be it" towards them and for them, etc, and just put the truth on the back burner for awhile maybe, etc...
There is such a "gulf", etc, and I just don't know if they can take the step or make the journey, etc, which is why I'm thinking about just being, or trying to be, just simply love towards them, and/or for them, etc...Maybe that’s part of growing in spiritual things, @Neogaia777. Rather than seeing the situation as an unhappy step back due to others and their hard heartenedness, it can be part of discovering a better way to reach people.Doors open to a gentle knock, not to banging and screaming through the letterbox.
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